2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix - Baku, June 04 - 06

[carisi2k]

It was opened back up a lap before the restart. Max would have been so much faster then anybody else that he would have easily came back from where ever he ended up and he had about 20 laps to do it with as well. Plenty of time for him to make his way through.

[siskue2005]

It was opened back up a lap before the restart. Max would have been so much faster then anybody else that he would have easily came back from where ever he ended up and he had about 20 laps to do it with as well. Plenty of time for him to make his way through.

He would have been dead last from leading a race, doesn't make sense. even if the car is fast and he could easily claw back the gap, we cannot say if he would crash with slower cars or get held up by the cars with high top speed.
High risk he didn't need to take if running first

[PlatinumZealot]

You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence?

Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

Have you reviewed the evidence before your claims of irony? Check the previous times Pirelli investigations concluded in a bad batch or fundamental construction issue. Check the last failures gong back a few years. The circumstances and the actions taken. Needless to jump to conclusion because "but Christian Horner said."

[DChemTech]

You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence?

Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

Have you reviewed the evidence before your claims of irony? Check the previous times Pirelli investigations concluded in a bad batch or fundamental construction issue. Check the last failures gong back a few years. The circumstances and the actions taken. Needless to jump to conclusion because "but Christian Horner said."

What I mean is that you use essentially the same set of (lack of) evidence to claim it must be debris and that therefore Horner is fabricating stories. Or for that matter, use very, very thin threads of 'evidence' to conclude Gasly is deliberately being used to hinder Mercedes pit-stops.

[Sieper]

You sure you want to strongly agree with little evidence?

Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

Have you reviewed the evidence before your claims of irony? Check the previous times Pirelli investigations concluded in a bad batch or fundamental construction issue. Check the last failures gong back a few years. The circumstances and the actions taken. Needless to jump to conclusion because "but Christian Horner said."

A few years? Only last year both Max (at Imola) and Lewis and Valterri (at Silverstone) had the same issue ruin their races (Hamilton still won on 3 wheels). Still not reaching the conclusion that there is something wrong will only mean it will happen again. And it might just happen to your Lewis again this time. Could be anybody.

[dans79]

Still not reaching the conclusion that there is something wrong will only mean it will happen again. And it might just happen to your Lewis again this time. Could be anybody.

To me it's about driver safety more than anything else. Even though the 2 failures were at high speed, they were minor accidents because The cars where close to the walls before the accident and traveling parallel to the walls. Thus the G load experienced by the drivers when impacting the walls was low.

if the failures has happened in Parabolica, 130R, Eau Rouge, Maggots, Becketts , or other similar corners, the accidents would have been much more severe.

[Andres125sx]

What would be the odd that a debris will cut the tyre and instantly destroy the construction?

Probably not that good. As I mentioned before Bottas got a right rear puncture in 2018 after hitting a massive piece of debris and it didn't instantly destroy the tire, he had several hundred meters to slow the car and get it under control.

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

[Jolle]

What would be the odd that a debris will cut the tyre and instantly destroy the construction?

Probably not that good. As I mentioned before Bottas got a right rear puncture in 2018 after hitting a massive piece of debris and it didn't instantly destroy the tire, he had several hundred meters to slow the car and get it under control.

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

Pirelli is running the tires on the edge, apparently sometimes slightly over it... it's racing, stuff should be on the edge. With the engines only "end of life" for three races at the season, we're gotten used to bulletproof cars. Tires are still end of life twice a race.

Pirelli had limited data about the loads and tires of Baku. They didn't race here last year and limited running on Friday probably didn't help.

Another wild theory: Both teammates of the cars that crashed were 1&2... could it be that AM and RBR were running a bit more camber on the rear wheels for traction?

[Edax]

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

Yes but by your own argument you can argue that the construction plays a role here. Since no two pieces of carbon are the same, the likelihood of two tires getting cut in exactly the same spot, and in the the same way, is virtually non existent.

Therefore if you see exactly the same failure mode it has to be at least affected by the design.

My guess is that they are still having the same issue that they reported at the British GP. Perhaps the process is triggered by a cut, but the main problem would be that the tire starts developing a growing subsurface hotspot by internal friction. In the past the belt would delaminate and fly off. But since they strengthened that area the failure moved to the edge of the belt.

Also the fact that you see almost no fiber pullout could be an indication that this area has been pretty hot (though this could also be caused by other reasons).

[sp8472]

I don’t get why Pirelli are being given such a hard time for tyre failures. If they were 5 laps old, yes. But both Stroll and Max were definitely pushing the number of laps on a tyre. I don’t want to see a tyre that can make it a whole race. Even if it’s a hard tyre.

Yes Pirelli give a expected number of laps a tyre can last. But this has to be an estimate at best. Based of averages of averages. When it comes to real life racing this should not be taken as a rule. Teams take a big risk pushing the tyre to the limit. Nothing stopped them coming in and doing a tyre change. It’s no different to pushing a engine close to its limit. Failures happen and they are more likely to happen the closer to expected end of life. Throw in some other variables like closer racing so you push the tyre a bit harder, higher than expected track temperature, windy conditions and the odd bit of debris and you are in dangerous territory if you operate near the end of life window. Teams have data. They take calculated risks. Stroll was waiting for a safety car. If one came he would have been sitting pretty. Instead he pushed a tyre too far and lost everything.

Max then had the additional knowledge that there was a possibility that the tyres were not lasting as long, but he kept going because pitting for new tyres would have lost him track position. He chose to take the risky option. This approach paid off in his first race for Red Bull in Barcelona when Kimmi, on much younger tyres could not pass. He took the gamble there and won the race. He was the hero that day. This time he lost big time. To me that’s the thrill of racing.

If anything I want to see tyres being less durable and have at least 2-3 tyre changes in a race. Not just 1. Force teams to make more tactical decisions. I don’t want to see processions of slow cars on old tyres not being able to be passed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

Have you reviewed the evidence before your claims of irony? Check the previous times Pirelli investigations concluded in a bad batch or fundamental construction issue. Check the last failures gong back a few years. The circumstances and the actions taken. Needless to jump to conclusion because "but Christian Horner said."

What I mean is that you use essentially the same set of (lack of) evidence to claim it must be debris and that therefore Horner is fabricating stories. Or for that matter, use very, very thin threads of 'evidence' to conclude Gasly is deliberately being used to hinder Mercedes pit-stops.

We are all free to think, but I am always careful not to make statements of fact when I don't have all the facts. (if I do make hard statements better know that I am joking or in a silly seasob thread). And I am always prepared to admit being wrong.

This whole discussion started because a poster claimed that the faluire is a quality defect in how Pirelli constructs the tires. I commented that is a bold claim without a quark of evidence. What's so crazy about that?


On the bold part..

I will address that in a new thread... I have some examples of that tactic being used before.

[PlatinumZealot]

Sorry to say, but don't you see a little bit of irony in this comment?

Have you reviewed the evidence before your claims of irony? Check the previous times Pirelli investigations concluded in a bad batch or fundamental construction issue. Check the last failures gong back a few years. The circumstances and the actions taken. Needless to jump to conclusion because "but Christian Horner said."

A few years? Only last year both Max (at Imola) and Lewis and Valterri (at Silverstone) had the same issue ruin their races (Hamilton still won on 3 wheels). Still not reaching the conclusion that there is something wrong will only mean it will happen again. And it might just happen to your Lewis again this time. Could be anybody.

Yes but we can check to see what the investigations concluded over the years and see what normally causes these failures.

This is the intial investigstion:

https://the-race.com/formula-1/pirellis ... -failures/

Pirelli has gathered remains of the tyres to conduct a thorough investigation, but the company’s Formula 1 boss Mario Isola has ruled out the possibility of a wear-related failure.

This is for several reasons, including the lack of warning before a sudden loss of pressure, the fact there was still adequate tread in the remains of both tyres, others running longer on sets of hards and that cuts were discovered in other tyres, including Lewis Hamilton’s rear-left from the second stint.

Cuts on the same rear left!

Also.. Too Max... And Checo
Weaving all over the place after that first safety car.. Running off line.. Curb riding like no tomorrow.. I could logically say the RedBull's should have more agressive debris embedded in their tyres than the other front runners but.... Will have to watch their onboards or something.

[nzjrs]

We are all free to think, but I am always careful not to make statements of fact when I don't have all the facts. (if I do make hard statements better know that I am joking or in a silly seasob thread). And I am always prepared to admit being wrong.

Good point actually, I think we have all noticed you have two dominant styles of posts; 1) inflammatory posts where you "use the data" to state something absolutely and when pushed, walk it back to defensible nonsense. 2) inflammatory posts where you "use the data" to state something absolutely and when pushed, hahaha it was a joke.

The key is to know which PZ is posting at any given time.

[PlatinumZealot]

we can jump to any conclusion based on previous accidents caused by debris. Debris is broken pieces of carbon fiber, so there are no two equal pieces of debris, so there are no two equal damages caused by debris. One can instantly blow the tire, other can cause small damage so the tire can still work for some time, but when it reaches it´s maximum load at the straight (no fast corners in baku) due to the maximum downforce at maximum speed (no DRS) it fails.

I´m not saying that´s what happened, only that we can´t know what happened, it could be caused by debris, or it could be a tire construction or design failure, we can´t know, and we probably will never know

Pirelly asking for higher pressures on friday is suspicious tough

Yes but by your own argument you can argue that the construction plays a role here. Since no two pieces of carbon are the same, the likelihood of two tires getting cut in exactly the same spot, and in the the same way, is virtually non existent.

Therefore if you see exactly the same failure mode it has to be at least affected by the design.

My guess is that they are still having the same issue that they reported at the British GP. Perhaps the process is triggered by a cut, but the main problem would be that the tire starts developing a growing subsurface hotspot by internal friction. In the past the belt would delaminate and fly off. But since they strengthened that area the failure moved to the edge of the belt.

Also the fact that you see almost no fiber pullout could be an indication that this area has been pretty hot (though this could also be caused by other reasons).

Two tyres definitely don't need to be cut in the same spot to puncture... Not sure if you meant the same spot on the track.

The British GP failures were concluded as debris if i remember... So some more food for thought.

[El Scorchio]

Not sure if this thought has been posted, but does anyone think the reduction in practice time could be a factor?
Perhaps less time for proper data collection on the hard tyres, and therefore maybe less certainty about the life would be in the race, possibly leading to greater potential for failures?

Certainly in Baku, given the practice sessions, I'd be surprised if many of the teams got all the data they wanted.