Formula 1 Aerodynamics - article series and general discussion

[godlameroso]

.... soft damper settings to speed up the weight transfer.
Dampers control timing of the spring rate. Stiff dampers resist motion soft dampers allow it. So in order to speed up weight transfer you need soft dampers. To slow it down you stiffen.

sorry but I think this is just .... wrong

the weight transfer is essentially independent of the routes taken by the forces between the CG and the wheels
weight transfer and body attitude aren't the same thing
using differential damper forces to adjust body attitude 'on the fly' isn't essentially a weight transfer matter

anyone ?

Yes it is my friend, if you were here I would take you for a drive and show you physically.

The Miata and S2000 are great cars for learning how to drive with weight transfer and left foot braking because both cars are 50:50 weight distribution and being convertibles have very strong and rigid center lines. This communicates momentum to the driver in a very intimate way.

The S2000 is known for it's X-bone frame, because of this and the dull electronic power steering, you are forced to listen to the chassis to know the limits. Because of this, over time with practice, you start becoming aware of how the car rolling, and nose diving and the rear lifting, and the effects of slip angle, throttle, and braking are so closely related.

I'll give you an example, turn 13 in Sebring, before left foot braking, I would brake in a straight line for the corner, lift to unload the rear differential(torsen type) turn then hold the gas through the corner. After left foot braking, I would brake earlier, but more gently, I noticed as I held the brake longer but more gently I could load the front left tire more effectively, as well as prevent the rear inside right from losing grip(it would do so because I like to run stiff rear rebound). The result was 4 tenths on that corner alone, by changing my driving technique I shaved nearly a second from my best time, and I didn't even have to graze the wall on turn 1 like I did on my previous best. In fact I was down .3 after turn 3, but gained it all back from turn 7 on.

[godlameroso]

.... soft damper settings to speed up the weight transfer.
Dampers control timing of the spring rate. Stiff dampers resist motion soft dampers allow it. So in order to speed up weight transfer you need soft dampers. To slow it down you stiffen.

sorry but I think this is just .... wrong

the weight transfer is essentially independent of the routes taken by the forces between the CG and the wheels
weight transfer and body attitude aren't the same thing
using differential damper forces to adjust body attitude 'on the fly' isn't essentially a weight transfer matter

anyone ?

The results of my encouragement and tutelage regarding driving techniques



He didn't think 44's were possible until I "showed him de wey" and now he's in the 42's.

[godlameroso]

What happens when you surf? The water is moving faster than the board, the board's buoyancy resists the tendency of the board to be pulled under the water. The boundary layer on the surfboard and the faster moving surf pull the surfboard down at the rear. Where the keel and the surfer's bodyweight are concentrated. So you have to balance the forces pulling down on the surfboard vs the air current lifting the front.

You're literally riding a water wing.

[Just_a_fan]

When the board is on a wave, it is moving down the face of the wave - it's falling. The water on the face of the wave is going backwards, relative to the board, not forwards. The wave as a whole moves forward but the water, as a whole, doesn't do much moving - the energy in the wave moves forwards but the general tendency of the water is to remain roughly where it is. Once the wave starts to break, there is move localised movement of the water, until it topples over at the top and the water comes crashing down. But that's not where a surfer wants to be anyway as it's destructive.

[godlameroso]

When the board is on a wave, it is moving down the face of the wave - it's falling. The water on the face of the wave is going backwards, relative to the board, not forwards. The wave as a whole moves forward but the water, as a whole, doesn't do much moving - the energy in the wave moves forwards but the general tendency of the water is to remain roughly where it is. Once the wave starts to break, there is move localised movement of the water, until it topples over at the top and the water comes crashing down. But that's not where a surfer wants to be anyway as it's destructive.

https://www.acs.psu.edu/drussell/Demos/ ... r-2016.gif

Thank you for adding to the conversation, I have learned something myself just now.

The water at a certain depth is still, it is only the surface water than moves if at all, but only because the undulations caused by the wind and the sloping shore. The wind causes the waves to undulate, and that undulation travels like a ripple, and as that undulation moves across towards the shore the distance between the surface and sea floor diminish and the wave becomes more apparent. The flow accelerates and its pressure lowers in accordance to natural law.

The sea floor and the air pressure above act as the two walls for the water.

[Hoffman900]

.... soft damper settings to speed up the weight transfer.
Dampers control timing of the spring rate. Stiff dampers resist motion soft dampers allow it. So in order to speed up weight transfer you need soft dampers. To slow it down you stiffen.

sorry but I think this is just .... wrong

the weight transfer is essentially independent of the routes taken by the forces between the CG and the wheels
weight transfer and body attitude aren't the same thing
using differential damper forces to adjust body attitude 'on the fly' isn't essentially a weight transfer matter

anyone ?

The results of my encouragement and tutelage regarding driving techniques



He didn't think 44's were possible until I "showed him de wey" and now he's in the 42's.

Still a bunch more in it. MX5 Cup cars are in the 1:40s.

[godlameroso]

sorry but I think this is just .... wrong

the weight transfer is essentially independent of the routes taken by the forces between the CG and the wheels
weight transfer and body attitude aren't the same thing
using differential damper forces to adjust body attitude 'on the fly' isn't essentially a weight transfer matter

anyone ?

The results of my encouragement and tutelage regarding driving techniques



He didn't think 44's were possible until I "showed him de wey" and now he's in the 42's.

Still a bunch more in it. MX5 Cup cars are in the 1:40s.

That's a road car with about 350kg extra on the cup car and no roll cage. Still on stock suspension, stock aero, stock wheels. Only mods are delrin offset upper control arm bushings, for extra camber in the front, racing brake pads, and 200TW tires. Otherwise fully stock CR S2000 with 280k kilometers.

[Hoffman900]

200TW is meaningless, most racing tire brands just call them that to meet TW rules. What brand and compound?

T3 lap times in SCCA in a S2000 are in the 1:43s. Bone stock other than R-DOT’s, cage, and a cat back. That was done not with the best drivers in the class though. Lap record in that class is in the 1:41s.

It's a very good time for a track day car / driver, but there is still more there.

[godlameroso]

200TW is meaningless, most racing tire brands just call them that to meet TW rules. What brand and compound?

T3 lap times in SCCA in a S2000 are in the 1:43s. Bone stock other than R-DOT’s, cage, and a cat back. That was done not with the best drivers in the class though. Lap record in that class is in the 1:41s.

It's a very good time for a track day car / driver, but there is still more there.

Indeed, but I'm not focusing on outright lap time, but where that driver came from 47's. We both know there's more to come, and finding it, digging deep with the same car is a very enjoyable journey. Why feel disheartened at not being the best, when you can enjoy getting there and dueling with very other strong competitors that drive you on.

Most 200TW tires all work the same nowadays, they've been forced into that performance window due to grassroot regulations.

[godlameroso]

Back to aero discussions. We all are familiar with the vortices that come off the diffuser, the diffuser being a divergent volume, creates a pressure gap in the middle of the volume, for higher pressure air ahead of the floor to fill.

Behind the diffuser, the upwash itself is high pressure, that high pressure wake seeks the low pressure of the rear wing. This is why the rear wing aids diffuser extraction. It also helps that the vortices that are shed from the rear wing end plates rotate in the same direction.

This is why the spoon wing CAN work so well. The spoon wing follows the path of the car's upwash, accelerating it to a certain extent. By giving more airflow to that region, the low pressure side of the wing and the down/outwash element to the end plate both work to accelerate the upwash flow. The viscous forces of the rear wing vortices help drive the vortices being shed by the floor. Like two gears meshing together.

Since the diffuser vortex goes up and out and then down and in it creates a high pressure wall above the floor between the bodywork and rear tire. All the furniture and bodywork creates a physical barrier for the high pressure air to recirculate below the car increasing the pressure difference.

You can see a lot of teams have reinforced the edges of their diffuser precisely for this reason.



McLaren however had a very nice idea, and full credit where credit is due.

[jjn9128]

Back to aero discussions. We all are familiar with the vortices that come off the diffuser, the diffuser being a divergent volume, creates a pressure gap in the middle of the volume, for higher pressure air ahead of the floor to fill.

Behind the diffuser, the upwash itself is high pressure, that high pressure wake seeks the low pressure of the rear wing. This is why the rear wing aids diffuser extraction. It also helps that the vortices that are shed from the rear wing end plates rotate in the same direction.

This is why the spoon wing CAN work so well. The spoon wing follows the path of the car's upwash, accelerating it to a certain extent. By giving more airflow to that region, the low pressure side of the wing and the down/outwash element to the end plate both work to accelerate the upwash flow. The viscous forces of the rear wing vortices help drive the vortices being shed by the floor. Like two gears meshing together.

Since the diffuser vortex goes up and out and then down and in it creates a high pressure wall above the floor between the bodywork and rear tire. All the furniture and bodywork creates a physical barrier for the high pressure air to recirculate below the car increasing the pressure difference.

You can see a lot of teams have reinforced the edges of their diffuser precisely for this reason.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E11xFcMX0AY ... name=large

McLaren however had a very nice idea, and full credit where credit is due.

https://files.catbox.moe/f3bvym.jpeg

What the f*** are you on about???? Air behind diffuser is high pressure???? Then that doodled image!?! I just don't know where to start on that.

Spoon wings work by creating elliptical load across span, i.e. less lift (-ve lift / downforce) at the tips than the centreline.

[godlameroso]

Back to aero discussions. We all are familiar with the vortices that come off the diffuser, the diffuser being a divergent volume, creates a pressure gap in the middle of the volume, for higher pressure air ahead of the floor to fill.

Behind the diffuser, the upwash itself is high pressure, that high pressure wake seeks the low pressure of the rear wing. This is why the rear wing aids diffuser extraction. It also helps that the vortices that are shed from the rear wing end plates rotate in the same direction.

This is why the spoon wing CAN work so well. The spoon wing follows the path of the car's upwash, accelerating it to a certain extent. By giving more airflow to that region, the low pressure side of the wing and the down/outwash element to the end plate both work to accelerate the upwash flow. The viscous forces of the rear wing vortices help drive the vortices being shed by the floor. Like two gears meshing together.

Since the diffuser vortex goes up and out and then down and in it creates a high pressure wall above the floor between the bodywork and rear tire. All the furniture and bodywork creates a physical barrier for the high pressure air to recirculate below the car increasing the pressure difference.

You can see a lot of teams have reinforced the edges of their diffuser precisely for this reason.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E11xFcMX0AY ... name=large

McLaren however had a very nice idea, and full credit where credit is due.

https://files.catbox.moe/f3bvym.jpeg

What the f*** are you on about???? Air behind diffuser is high pressure???? Then that doodled image!?! I just don't know where to start on that.

Spoon wings work by creating elliptical load across span, i.e. less lift (-ve lift / downforce) at the tips than the centreline.

The air on the outside of the diffuser and behind the car is high pressure it is static air, it is not being accelerated like the air flowing off the diffuser kinky kink. There's some eddies which are inevitable, but nothing that compares to the energy being displaced by the car.

"spOoN wiNgS woRk bY cReATing StuFf i LEarNed in SmArtY sKoOl"

Cool story bro. You fail to look at the bigger picture of all the flowfields involved. You look at one part in isolation and fail to see how all the aero-mechanical forces are interacting. I understand my Rembrandt painting is utter shite, what do you want me to do, I can't do your job for you, I'm not getting paid for this. I give you a little hint and if you chuck it in the trash, that's a you problem.

Serious conversations require serious commitments from those who want them.

I generally like you, and your articles, so I'll give you another hint as to what's going on.

[Vyssion]

"spOoN wiNgS woRk bY cReATing StuFf i LEarNed in SmArtY sKoOl"

Cool story bro. You fail to look at the bigger picture of all the flowfields involved. You look at one part in isolation and fail to see how all the aero-mechanical forces are interacting. I understand my Rembrandt painting is utter shite, what do you want me to do, I can't do your job for you, I'm not getting paid for this. I give you a little hint and if you chuck it in the trash, that's a you problem.

...

I generally like you, and your articles, so I'll give you another hint as to what's going on.

There is a reason why jjn and I were asked to write articles in the first place; we were approached by the mods who wanted to know more about us, given the quality of our posts and aerodynamic knowledge (in our case). That knowledge came from masters and PhD's in aerodynamics of race cars (specifically F1) as well as several years in an aerodynamic and CFD related professional working industry. "SmArtY sKoOl" has served us both very well, and we are more than happy to share that knowledge with the forum here because we believe that knowledge should be shared, so that we all can develop a greater appreciation of the engineering effort that goes into our Sunday 2hr pleasure time - and just like you, we also aren't getting paid for this. I can assure you that we do indeed look at aerodynamic flow regimes from a broader perspective, knowing full well that the near-car flow structures are controlled by careful optimisation of the entire car.

As an aside, you might want to check the direction you've drawn for the air going through the louvres in your Rembrandt painting.

[nzjrs]

"spOoN wiNgS woRk bY cReATing StuFf i LEarNed in SmArtY sKoOl"

Cool story bro.

This is an absolute --- garbage reply and makes me reevaluate everything you have written on this forum.

Imagine condescendingly speaking to Wazari, or someone I know you respect like this.

I thought your erudite philosophy on the other threads was trying to convey a degree of wisdom but replying like you did here makes it seem the complete opposite - a street smarts vs book smarts false dichotomy born from insecurity.

It was truly a terrible reply.

Personally, I'd like to thank Vysson and JJn9128 for these fantastic posts.

[Just_a_fan]

It was truly a terrible reply.

Personally, I'd like to thank Vysson and JJn9128 for these fantastic posts.

I'd like to echo both of those sentiments, both the positive and the sadly negative.