Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

Yes
17
16%
No
79
76%
Convince Me
8
8%
 
Total votes: 104

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El Scorchio
20
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 23:32
I'd rather see a race where Williams, Merc, RBR, AR, and AT, etc all have equal odds to put it on pole for qualifying. Having 10 different winners in the first 10 races would also suit me just fine.
But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.

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JordanMugen
85
Joined: 17 Oct 2018, 13:36

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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El Scorchio wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:29
Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 23:32
I'd rather see a race where Williams, Merc, RBR, AR, and AT, etc all have equal odds to put it on pole for qualifying. Having 10 different winners in the first 10 races would also suit me just fine.
But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.
2009 was pretty close to that wasn't it? :)

Brawn, Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari were all winners, and Toyota scored many poles but stuffed up their chances to win. Renault took a pole position. BMW scored some podiums, but probably should have been further up there if they hadn't stuffed up their car.

For the qualification result in Hungary for example, you had the WDC leader qualifying down in 8th place:
1 7 Spain Fernando Alonso Renault 1:21.313 1:20.826 1:21.569 1
2 15 Germany Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1:21.178 1:20.604 1:21.607 2
3 14 Australia Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1:20.964 1:20.358 1:21.741 3
4 1‡ United Kingdom Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1:20.842 1:20.465 1:21.839 4
5 16 Germany Nico Rosberg Williams-Toyota 1:20.793 1:20.862 1:21.890 5
6 2‡ Finland Heikki Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 1:21.659 1:20.807 1:22.095 6
7 4‡ Finland Kimi Räikkönen Ferrari 1:21.500 1:20.647 1:22.468 7
8 22 United Kingdom Jenson Button Brawn-Mercedes 1:21.471 1:20.707 1:22.511 8
9 17 Japan Kazuki Nakajima Williams-Toyota 1:21.407 1:20.570 1:22.835 9
10 3‡ Brazil Felipe Massa[1] Ferrari 1:21.420 1:20.823 No time [2]

Sadly, this is when Massa was hit by the spring from Barrichello's car. :(

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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El Scorchio wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:29
Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 23:32
I'd rather see a race where Williams, Merc, RBR, AR, and AT, etc all have equal odds to put it on pole for qualifying. Having 10 different winners in the first 10 races would also suit me just fine.

But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.
+1

I’ve been around a lot of spec racing. The same drivers and teams always win and are at the front. This happens for a reason. It may look closer on paper, but in a series like that .4 might as well be a mile in qualifying.

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El Scorchio
20
Joined: 29 Jul 2019, 12:41

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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JordanMugen wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:50
El Scorchio wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:29
Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 23:32
I'd rather see a race where Williams, Merc, RBR, AR, and AT, etc all have equal odds to put it on pole for qualifying. Having 10 different winners in the first 10 races would also suit me just fine.
But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.
2009 was pretty close to that wasn't it? :)

Brawn, Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari were all winners, and Toyota scored many poles but stuffed up their chances to win. BMW scored some podiums, but probably should have been further up there if they hadn't stuffed up their car.
There are definitely seasons when there were more different winners than in this present era, but to find anything like 10 in 10 is simply not going to happen. In 2009 only 6 drivers actually won a race. I’m sure I can remember a 4 in 4 at some point in recent history but not any more than that.

I’m sure in all the hybrid era seasons there have been at least four race winners every season? (I haven’t checked so happy to be corrected) There have been three this year already. (Edit- did check. Three winners in 2014-5 but four or more every season since)

Ever improving reliability isn’t helping. Very rarely now are leaders DNFing, whereas 10-20 years ago it was much more prevalent.

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Hoffman900 wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 02:03
El Scorchio wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:29
Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 23:32
I'd rather see a race where Williams, Merc, RBR, AR, and AT, etc all have equal odds to put it on pole for qualifying. Having 10 different winners in the first 10 races would also suit me just fine.

But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.
+1

I’ve been around a lot of spec racing. The same drivers and teams always win and are at the front. This happens for a reason. It may look closer on paper, but in a series like that .4 might as well be a mile in qualifying.
2012 had a bunch of different winners at the start of the season I think...🤔 7 of 7?

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Zynerji wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 02:22
Hoffman900 wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 02:03
El Scorchio wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 01:29



But that hasn’t ever and won’t ever happen in F1, regardless of what the regs feasibly could change to.
+1

I’ve been around a lot of spec racing. The same drivers and teams always win and are at the front. This happens for a reason. It may look closer on paper, but in a series like that .4 might as well be a mile in qualifying.
2012 had a bunch of different winners at the start of the season I think...🤔 7 of 7?
Yeah, but over the season, it doesn't play out like that.

Scott Dixon won 7 championships in Indy Car, which is essentially a spec series. Jimmy Johnson won 5 championships in as many years at NASCAR's peak (and 2 more on top of that), in essentially spec cars.

On the amateur level; SCCA Spec Miata, Formula Ford (now Honda powered here), SCCA Spec Racer Ford (now SRF3 and Mazda powered), the same prep shops and drivers win.

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godlameroso
309
Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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The reason this season is interesting is because the cars have a lot of cheap development potential, and the stakes for winning are just as high. So the cars are changing, and teams understanding of the cars and the concepts they use to develop the aero also changes, which ends up changing the pecking order on its own.

Seriously this is real life and unscripted, and it's better than any scripted program.

The new cars are closer to real road cars, in the sense they're heavy, so aero makes less of a difference, but the cars are still enormous, and will be even more so. I just feel that the new cars are a downgrade to what we have now. If Williams and Haas could modify their uprights they'd be joining the scrap for points this season with a few aero developments.

But if they want these similar looking cars and want huge gaps and lack of development, they'll get it. Without development potential the positions of the cars will stagnate through the season.

Even 2020 was interesting watching RB slowly chip away at Mercedes' titanic gap.

Honestly the only reason they're ditching the current car is because a few people think bargeboards are ugly or something.
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TimW
TimW
36
Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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TimW wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 20:11
nzjrs wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 18:59
Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 18:55
I guess I might just have to be happy in the fact that we get 2021 for what may be the greatest season of all time.

And people don't tune into F1 for the "construction sport", they tune in for the THRILL.
FWIW I watch it for the construction sport. I'd be happy with a complete rule rewrite every 3 years. In the context of a cost control formula it shouldn't matter how frequently they flip the script.

I'm sure I'm abnormal in this belief.

But I do appreciate that while it is close it is a better product and best for the health of F1.
On F1technical I'd expect more people to watch for the engineering aspects, and thus welcome rule changes.

New rules every year, drastic changes, rulebook publicised in October. That would bring back a lot of visible creativity and new ideas. With the current steady rule set there is mostly fine tuning and optimization, even for engineers it is difficult to spot the developments.

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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TimW wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 06:26
TimW wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 20:11
nzjrs wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 18:59


FWIW I watch it for the construction sport. I'd be happy with a complete rule rewrite every 3 years. In the context of a cost control formula it shouldn't matter how frequently they flip the script.

I'm sure I'm abnormal in this belief.

But I do appreciate that while it is close it is a better product and best for the health of F1.
On F1technical I'd expect more people to watch for the engineering aspects, and thus welcome rule changes.

New rules every year, drastic changes, rulebook publicised in October. That would bring back a lot of visible creativity and new ideas. With the current steady rule set there is mostly fine tuning and optimization, even for engineers it is difficult to spot the developments.
So, spend more on tech changes?

I'm not understanding your point.

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PlatinumZealot
559
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Zynerji wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 17:40
With Merc and RBR so tight at the front, and the midfield getting super close, should the switch to new cars be put off for another year to see if we can have a 3-6 way battle in the WCC and a 6-12 way battle in the WDC in 2022?
No because the 2021 rules are artifical and handicaps old chassis that were never designed for them. Goes against the spirit of F1.
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TimW
TimW
36
Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Zynerji wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 12:58
TimW wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 06:26
TimW wrote:
20 Jun 2021, 20:11

On F1technical I'd expect more people to watch for the engineering aspects, and thus welcome rule changes.

New rules every year, drastic changes, rulebook publicised in October. That would bring back a lot of visible creativity and new ideas. With the current steady rule set there is mostly fine tuning and optimization, even for engineers it is difficult to spot the developments.
So, spend more on tech changes?

I'm not understanding your point.
The point is that if you have drastic changes, teams have to overhaul their designs, do concept changes, and that will spark creativity and new developments. Not just optimization like you have now, but bigger changes over a season and bigger differences between teams.
E.g. if you look at the front wings, teams are now optimizing the position of the inside tips of the wing elements. Changes between successive wings are so small, that it is hard to even notice them. If you e.g. ban the front wing altogether, that will spark much more major developments.

For spending it does not matter if you do big changes. Now they simply spend their manhours optimizing tiny things. It may actually be more difficult to work with a big team effectively if you go to concept changes.

BTW no idea how I quoted my own post. I did a correction to it (swype misunderstood me), but I now see I somehow quoted my complete post.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Stable rules always close up the field. This goes for every race series I've seen this happen.

Drastic rules changes reward the teams with big pockets / resources. Even in the cost cap era, teams that have the infrastructure in place have better CFD correlation models, better engine models, better tire models, so even if they are limited on this time, they can use their time more productively than a smaller team. A team like Mercedes is going to use their limited CFD time for actual research and development, and not chasing correlation issues. You can't unlearn what you already know, and in this regard, Mercedes and RedBull have a big advantage, and hopefully Ferrari figures things out.

When the rules are stable over a period of time, the gains become smaller, so the teams that are on the back foot slowly catch up to the front. It doesn't mean they are close, just that .5s is the new 1s. It looks closer on paper, but isn't, but that's okay for most fans and it's easier to hype.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on 21 Jun 2021, 16:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Zynerji
110
Joined: 27 Jan 2016, 16:14

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Hoffman900 wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 15:55
Stable rules always close up the field. This goes for every race series I've seen this happen.

Drastic rules changes reward the teams with big pockets / resources. Even in the cost cap era, teams that have the infrastructure in place have better CFD correlation models, better engine models, better tire models, so even if they are limited on this time, they can use their time more productively than a smaller team. A team like Mercedes is going to use their limited CFD time for actual research and development, and not chasing correlation issues.

When the rules are stable over a period of time, the gains become smaller, so the teams that are on the back foot slowly catch up to the front. It doesn't mean they are close, just that .5s is the new 1s. It looks closer on paper, but isn't, but that's okay for most fans and it's easier to hype.
I point to the Q2 times in Azerbaijan.

That should be Q3 every race. We will not have that if the teams are allowed to flex their competitive advantages through rule change iterations every few years.

TimW
TimW
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Joined: 01 Aug 2019, 19:07

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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Yes for the gaps and the racing, rule changes are a bad thing. But from an engineering perspective it gets more interesting if there are changes..

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
211
Joined: 13 Oct 2019, 03:02

Re: Should the 2022 cars be moved to 2023?

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TimW wrote:
21 Jun 2021, 16:03
Yes for the gaps and the racing, rule changes are a bad thing. But from an engineering perspective it gets more interesting if there are changes..
Right, but honestly, endurance racing is more interesting from an engineering perspective. More diversity, good examples of using road based engines as race engines (and that development), less limited technologies, etc.

Yeah, F1 has the dollars and the talent, but it's more of a show than anything.