Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

[RZS10]

No idea ... 'worst case' it was within that margin, best case it could easily pass the test as is and adding the possible tolerance in brackets made the statement factually correct either way because that is the minimum requirement.

This is not about if the statement is factually correct or not but understanding if they are making full use of the tolerance. I would expect them taking advantage of it but who knows...

Same answer ... no idea ... but it would be a wing just for 4 races since the grace period ends after the Austrian GP - so it's more likely that it's either completely fine or an older development that is within the tolerance than that they developed a wing just for those few races. But that's just me guessing.

[diffuser]

On the other hand, we'll never know if RBR would not have used the LDF rear wing had they kept the bendy wing.

I think the answer it's pretty clear. No doubt they would have run more DF, had they kept the bendy wing, as long as they had a similar top speed...it was there for a reason!

RBR did seem to be suffering from more tire wear during the race, some of that must have come from running less DF. Maybe I'm to quick to judge.

suffering more compare to whom!?
Correlation does not imply causation. This time arround the key factor were the showers before the race. The green track shifted "the power" back to Mercedes. With more DF (considering the green track) they had the winning package. Unfortunately the execution was terrible.
From my point of view, without the rain, RBR had a better package for the weekend. In other words, they wouldn't suffer from tire wear as much as they did.

In comparison to Merc, did they have any other competition?

[peaty]

In comparison to Merc, did they have any other competition?

That's nothing new. Historically, throughout the hybrid era, Mercedes have looked after the tires much much better than Red Bull.
If the rear wing changes are not enough, we also have to add to the mix the new enforced minimum tire pressure. The changes affect the rears mainly (2 psi more is a lot!), so...not the best race to judge. But still, I think that what we saw is whitin what should be consider "normal" and expected.

[peaty]

LOL the FIA will slow down pitstops from the Hungarian GP onwards and new tires will be introduce. Just another coincidence...they'll have a look at the front wings one of these days...

[Sieper]

Hamilton was again talking about the speed RBR has on the straights. I just gut a little nauseous around the nose. Rear wing, pit stop, tires, engine. Pretty soon we have no car left. Merc is really competitive. Top job.

Meanwhile their FW flexes more and more abruptly then RBR and they have a push of a button braking is now impossible system that apparently is NOT dangerous. Or not as dangerous as a hypothetical unsafe release that has never happened with RBR that I ever saw.

[RZS10]

Brushing aside that none of this has anything to do with RW flex...

The FIA is (supposedly) already analyzing the FW footage (probably of all teams), i don't know what you all expect?
Are they supposed to just come up with some random test within a few weeks time? It took them almost a year for the RW, so even getting anything this season would be relatively quick.

Every team will have some system for tyre/brake warming, it's surely not just Mercedes and there's not really any point in comparing it to cars driving around without the wheels fully secured? Especially since such a lockup can be easily achieved by pressing the brake pedal too hard, so by that logic those pesky brake pedals are also quite dangerous ...

And there was an unsafe release by Haas with just three wheel nuts fully tightened in Baku, it's not always just about RBR y'know?

Some of the theories posted here are wild ... 2 years in the making? or just a spontaneous quick reaction to a complaint by Merc as posted somewhere else on the forum? What is it?

So far the assumption that it's all being done at the behest of Mercedes and in order to hurt RBR is based on what? That one sentence by Marko i assume where he claimed that Mercedes supposedly complained about their allegedly illegal equipment?

Maybe just wait until there's more information or even better until it is in effect and whether it has any influence on relative pit stop times before getting your panties in a twist ... afterall the RW stuff ended not having as much of an impact as most expected, the TD regarding pressures etc had no impact, at least none we could have noticed in the last race...

[nzjrs]

Are they supposed to just come up with some random test within a few weeks time? It took them almost a year for the RW, so even getting anything this season would be relatively quick.

What's your evidence that it took FIA 1 year for the wing TD? Just the memory of someone taking about rear wing flex a year ago, or was something written or disclosed by the FIA about when they started on the TD? I might have missed that disclosure.

[peaty]

Brushing aside that none of this has anything to do with RW flex...

are you sure about that?

The FIA is (supposedly) already analyzing the FW footage (probably of all teams), i don't know what you all expect?
Are they supposed to just come up with some random test within a few weeks time? It took them almost a year for the RW, so even getting anything this season would be relatively quick.

Well, it took them 3 days to come up with a random test for the RW. Nothing like a year as you said. The new test has nothing to do with what was discussed. Not only that, the rear wing was not the only element targeted in the first place yet is the only element for which a new test has been implemented.

Every team will have some system for tyre/brake warming, it's surely not just Mercedes and there's not really any point in comparing it to cars driving around without the wheels fully secured? Especially since such a lockup can be easily achieved by pressing the brake pedal too hard, so by that logic those pesky brake pedals are also quite dangerous ...

I agree, "brake magic" or similar systems are legal. Pretty much every team have their own version but, given the BS floating around, I can understand people raising question over safety. The fact is Hamilton could have easily cause an accident. If that is not enough, Russell almost run over the mechanics last season...Isn't that enough to, at least, look into it?

And there was an unsafe release by Haas with just three wheel nuts fully tightened in Baku, it's not always just about RBR y'know?

Here is the problem with that...we have had the same pitstop format ever since refuelling was banned in 2010. In 11 years we have had, not many, but more than one unsafe release. The only reason the FIA is stepping in now is Mercedes. As simple as that!

Some of the theories posted here are wild ... 2 years in the making? or just a spontaneous quick reaction to a complaint by Merc as posted somewhere else on the forum? What is it?

Looks like you don't understand sarcasm...Yeah, my bad.The FIA have been looking into the pitstops ever since refuelling was banned in 2010. Considering it's been 11 years in the making it's just coincidence that the FIA took action a week after Mercedes talk to them....C'mon...! They FIA started looking into it when Mercedes said so!
And I say talk because that's everything it takes for them to make the FIA to look and take action into whatever they want. Also it's worth noting that the reaction times are less than a week. That's the exact reason I brought the whole thing up as a comparison to the time is taking to clamp down front wing flexibility.

So far the assumption that it's all being done at the behest of Mercedes and in order to hurt RBR is based on what? That one sentence by Marko i assume where he claimed that Mercedes supposedly complained about their allegedly illegal equipment?

It's well known up and down the paddock that Mercedes are the instigators and, the only reason, is hurting RBR.

Maybe just wait until there's more information or even better until it is in effect and whether it has any influence on relative pit stop times before getting your panties in a twist ... afterall the RW stuff ended not having as much of an impact as most expected, the TD regarding pressures etc had no impact, at least none we could have noticed in the last race...

I don't know about you but I've got enough information. With regards to the impact or not impact of the last TD...the impact is there. People failing to understand said impact is another question/thing.

[RZS10]

Are they supposed to just come up with some random test within a few weeks time? It took them almost a year for the RW, so even getting anything this season would be relatively quick.

What's your evidence that it took FIA 1 year for the wing TD? Just the memory of someone taking about rear wing flex a year ago, or was something written or disclosed by the FIA about when they started on the TD? I might have missed that disclosure.

Well it's one of the few things that can actually be confirmed and almost everything else is just a (sometimes absolutely ridiculous) interpretation of events ("it happened within 3 days" - yea sure) or just guesswork ... it's somewhere in this thread, it was brought to their attention after the Styrian GP 2020 and then Tombazis mentioned they've been looking at preparing new tests. We're not even at that stage with the FWs since there hasn't even been an official communication from the FIA (?)
Fact is that from the time anyone brought it to their attention to them taking action and it coming into effect was roughly one year - all the other factors in play are an unknown, like the time when they actually started to work on that particular TD etc.

@peaty: you know ... you can just type a longer bit of text without picking apart posts and turning this thread into an unreadable mess.

- yes, tyres or pitstops have absolutely nothing to do with RW flex (or even FWs)
- if you want to believe that, sure.
- any mistake in using the elements controlling the car are potentially dangerous there's no reason to check it
- if you want to believe that, sure.
- badly used sarcasm is hard to detect, especially when someone has a certain history of posting inaccurate stuff (like the three day thing, for example) ... and if you want to believe that, sure.
- there's not a single quote confirming this, so it's just your own assumption that it's well known... but if you want to believe that, sure.
- I don't know about you but i don't like to jump to conclusions and prefer to be well informed instead of having kneejerk reactions ... and "the impact is there, believe me, you're just not smart enough to see it" uhuh ... ok ... feel free to enlighten me about the noticeable impact of the tyre TD (but not in this thread)

[nzjrs]

Well it's one of the few things that can actually be confirmed and almost everything else is just a (sometimes absolutely ridiculous) interpretation of events ("it happened within 3 days" - yea sure) or just guesswork ... it's somewhere in this thread, it was brought to their attention after the Styrian GP 2020 and then Tombazis mentioned they've been looking at preparing new tests. We're not even at that stage with the FWs since there hasn't even been an official communication from the FIA (?)
Fact is that from the time anyone brought it to their attention to them taking action and it coming into effect was roughly one year - all the other factors in play are an unknown, like the time when they actually started to work on that particular TD etc.

I don't care about FWs and I was quite precise in what I asked, no need to strawman me or respond to an opposing position you believe certain people might hold, but I do not.

Anyway, I guess the TLDR is that you believe this because someone mentioned it after the Styrian GP 2020. Shrug I guess.

[RZS10]

That "someone" was the "'head of single-seater technical matters" of the FIA.

The answer to your precise question was "all the other factors in play are an unknown, like the time when they actually started to work on that particular TD etc." ... it's all subjective guesswork.

[Wouter]

So far the assumption that it's all being done at the behest of Mercedes and in order to hurt RBR is based on what? That one sentence by Marko i assume where he claimed that Mercedes supposedly complained about their allegedly illegal equipment?

Maybe just wait until there's more information or even better until it is in effect and whether it has any influence on relative pit stop times before getting your panties in a twist ... afterall the RW stuff ended not having as much of an impact as most expected, the TD regarding pressures etc had no impact, at least none we could have noticed in the last race...

Helmut Marko has just confirmed that Mercedes has accused RBR of failing to execute pit stops correctly to the FIA.
He's angry because that new TD will cost them 0.4 sec, and that while they've spent a lot of years practicing on the track and in the factory to be able to perform a pit stop super fast. There is nothing wrong with their implements/wheelguns for the pit stops.

[nzjrs]

That "someone" was the "'head of single-seater technical matters" of the FIA.

The answer to your precise question was "all the other factors in play are an unknown, like the time when they actually started to work on that particular TD etc." ... it's all subjective guesswork.

I know who he is, rolls eyes.

[El Scorchio]

So far the assumption that it's all being done at the behest of Mercedes and in order to hurt RBR is based on what? That one sentence by Marko i assume where he claimed that Mercedes supposedly complained about their allegedly illegal equipment?

Maybe just wait until there's more information or even better until it is in effect and whether it has any influence on relative pit stop times before getting your panties in a twist ... afterall the RW stuff ended not having as much of an impact as most expected, the TD regarding pressures etc had no impact, at least none we could have noticed in the last race...

Helmut Marko has just confirmed that Mercedes has accused RBR of failing to execute pit stops correctly to the FIA.
He's angry because that new TD will cost them 0.4 sec, and that while they've spent a lot of years practicing on the track and in the factory to be able to perform a pit stop super fast. There is nothing wrong with their implements/wheelguns for the pit stops.

But that's of course if you believe what Helmut Marko says is the gospel truth. Anything coming from any of them high up in any team must be taken with quite a large grain of salt, in my experience. And that's regardless of what side your bread is buttered on.

I wouldn't take the word of Wolff, Horner or Marko as even being worth the paper it's written on.

If there's confirmation from an independent source, then fair enough.

[RZS10]

Still OT but there's the "more information" i said we should wait for in order to develop an informed opinion.

This article claims it was several teams who asked for this.

Alpine says it was about time the FIA did something since it was obvious that RBR wasn't following the letter of the rules (i.e. that the rules demand that the mechanic should give the ok manually after finishing his job whilst RBR had processes in play where the times were below human reaction time).

McLaren is happy as well saying they were "at the limit" with their stops whilst sticking to what the rules specify.

Alfa Romeo says that pit stops under 2 seconds are impossible whilst staying within the rules.

Lastly there's a not clearly attributed quote introduced with the sentence "the opposition (to RBR) saw a certain automatism:
"The Red Bull cars have been dropped with the wheel guns still on the wheel nuts. It was all a single process started by the sensor's signal after tightening the nut. Button press, dropping the car, pulling out the wheel guns, driving away."

As you (wouter) wrote, no mention of any funky pit stop equipment.

Red Bull is complaining, saying that it's seven years of practice down the drain.

By the reactions it's possible that it's not just a single team that wanted changes. Given that it's Renault, a Ferrari customer and a Mercedes customer approving it would rather appear that it's an "all against one" situation.

It's also clear that the TD was aimed at RBR under the guise of 'safety'.

@nzjrs i know that you know but you made it sound like it was some completely random person and not someone involved in officiating the sport, and i prefer to believe his word and stick to what is known than to come up with (conspiracy) theory nonsense like a few other people on this forum (not you, obv.)