FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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donskar wrote:
1. Several posts took the position that "ingenuity is more important than money" or perhaps "you don't need a budget to be innovative." Admirable philospophically; impractical in application: Great ideas will remain only ideas without the budget to refine, prototype, test, and produce. Colin Chapman created breakthrough designs AND led the way to sponsorship in F1. There's a message there. John Barnard, Gordon Murray, and Adrian Newey are probably our contemporary "Chapmans," and all of them created their greatest designs for teams with well above average budgets.

2. It's lunacy to make such a radical change without input from FOTA. Think this through: several teams will have to slash their budgets by 50% or MORE. Think of the long-term contracts already in place: top drivers and technical staff sign multi-year contracts; there are leases in place; supplier contracts. Enormous sums have been spent on facilities and equipment that will go unused or underused. The more you THINK about it, the more painful it becomes.

3. It's been said that the big teams will make vast profits and be able to go into endurance racing (?) or whatever. First, with the public knowledge that the costs of F1 have gone down drastically, advertisers will have a very large club to use to REDUCE their support for F1. Profits are NOT guaranteed. Second, successful F1 teams do NOTHING ELSE but F1. Ferrari, Reynard, March, Lotus, etc -- all tried to race in multiple formulae at the same time -- and failed miserably.

4. Finally, the worst aspect has already been beaten to death (and it deserves to die):
The FIA has the right to adjust elements of these freedoms to ensure that the cost-capped cars have neither an advantage nor a disadvantage when compared to cars running to the existing rules.

NO ONE who takes part in this forum can see that as anything else but a potential nightmare.

I will spend some time to counter those 4 points.

1. The big teams who control FOTA currently have budgets in excess of 400 mil €. That is a fact difficult to denie. Any startup which would contest the 2010 season in the 11th or 12th slot would have just 10 mil € travel money from FOM garanteed. Under such circumstances it would be difficult to even get to the 33 mil € that FIA now proposes. After negotiations - which always happen- the figure will be probably closer to 50 or 60 mil €. Twenty year ago no team had such money to spend and it looks very generous if you consider GP2 run of 5mil and F2 on 500.000. There is no reasonable point why teams cannot go back to the budget levels they used to have. Benetton and Renault have always run on considerably lower budgets than the top and that hasn't stopped them to win 4 championships.

2. It is hybris to think that FOTA can allways have it their way and keep their cosy cartell regardless of the state of the series. Their policies fail to represent half of the grid (which has never had the financial legs) and definetely the replacement teams for those that have been pushed into bancruptcy by FOTA. So on the issue of a suitable budget cap FOTA have failed to deliver for 9 months. They have been warned about this and should bear the consequences of their failure. If one wants to talk about lunacy at all (not very sensible) then the lunacy is to expect FOTA to set a fair budget cap. It is like putting a gambling addict in charge of the gambling commision. Why is it so painfull to scale back the operations that have grown beyond sustainebility in the last years? Using that point is like advocating throwing good money after bad. Just because you have been unreasonable in the past makes it still unreasonable in the present to overspend instead of making a decent profit and offering the competitors fair equality of resources and arms.

3. If they do not want to kick people out they should divest and take up other forms of motor sport or vehicle construction. If you spin off the right resources and make them independent of the F1 operation that isn't detracting to the F1 teams. Ferrari have the road car department and McLaren have their hands full with the new super sports car. BMW certainly have enough other uses for their surplus F1 engineers.

4. The performance adjustment of the budget capped formula's average speed to the avergage speed of the unlimeted budget teams may be a bit tricky but certainly no nightmare for an orgqanization with the resources of the FIA/FOM. They have live timing of every lap that will be run during the season. The mathematical model of computing average performance of one class of cars versus the other is childs play. The tricky bit you need for a smooth adjustment process is the modell how the tweaking factors like wing angles, engine revs and ride height/diffusor geometry impact on performance. Once you have those you feed the tweak factors back to the ECUs of all class two cars equally and you are done. One has to assume that the average performance can float in a certain band. An algorithm is needed which monitors trends and pulls the class performance up or down according to the float within that band. It is nothing but an expert system with a limited number of control factors. Expert systems currently run by the teams probably have a lot more complexity. Surely there can be some research conducted to construct this model. Perhaps the excess capacity of FOTA can be put to good uses for a short time.

Talking about some more practicle aspects of the planned regulations would be intersting. When should those rules be implemented? I reckon they will have a a decision point latest in summer when they apply for the next season. Teams will have to declare which set of rules they want to run to. By then the budget working group should have firmed up the specifics. Perhaps the option of running with the cap is so compelling that there will be no two classes.

Fianally I would ask the honorable gentlemen to refrain from such terms as lunacy or nightmare in this argument. It doesn't help to paint the oppo as idiots when you want to make a point. We should all be considered intelligent persons who can make a point without too much drama.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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I am with Chaparrall on this one, I think a united FOTA (including Ferrari) became a financial threat, why this is an effective political way to either force them out or stay and race "GP2".
But the paramount issue are the Billions of Euros the evil twins squeezed out of CVC, now partly in exMrsE's pockets, which needs to be paid by the sport to the banks at a rate of 260 millions a year for seasons to come.
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

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safeaschuck
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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Whiteblue, I usually find my self nodding in agreement with your posts but -

1. It was the old rules which created the situation where a David could slay a Goliath, this alone makes Max's argument pretty weak, I can't see a 10mill team miraculously overhauling one of the big 30 mill boys!

2. FOTA is exactly what is needed right now, thier way of thinking seems to be far more in line with fans desires than Max & Bernie. It seems odd but I hope they succeed in lobbying to keep costs up! at least until they can propose a more workable solution. The alternative (I feel) is that most of the member teams would be looking at an exit strategy (which is probably already drawn up given the current financial environment).
As Max has a standard engine/gearbox tender at the ready one might conclude that he is prepared for this eventuality and would accept it as a cost of regaining control. And as for 'Cartel' I think your looking in the wrong direction!

3. This is perhaps an inevitable situation BUT if F1 teams took root (I know they already are to a point) in the lower formula's, it would squeeze out even more independents, lessening the variety and make the gap an even wider one for potential new F1 teams to jump.

4. I agree that it is wrong to dismiss the technical possibilities out of hand, It may be do-able but would you want it? And what about a team looking at entering the sport (or staying in it). All thier hard work could be undone by the wave of the organisers wand, and never would they know when and where this evil spell would be cast? not a great prospect is it?
Imagine it in terms of your own career, you spend 30 years working hard, becoming the best in your field and your success and wages show it, then someone comes and gives you a partial lobotomy and cut's one of your arms off because it's not fair for people who are just starting in the industry.

Sorry man, I'm not shooting you down, this is mostly my opinion and the rest is me playing devils advocate. As I say I like your insight's.

If Max and Bernie know it all they should put up a grid of organiser mandated teams/vehicles like some rival series are, then they can prove what a great series they can run without interference from any pesky 'old schoolers' who want to make the cars go faster.

Henning
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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You can't have a 30 million budget and make rule changes every year.

You can't have a 30 million budget and expect teams to develop enough technology that some might be road car relevant

As an aside, F1 in past has not developed specifically for road cars, they have innovated for the sake of racing and then the technologies have filtered down to road cars - ABS, paddler shift etc

CMSMJ1
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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I haven't got time for an essay.

My basic thoughts are along to lines of why woiuld you bother to try and make a fast, efficient and well designed car withyour buckets of money when the FIA will slow you down anyways.

The "budget" teams could turn up with GP2 speed cars and they don't have to try to beat the big boys...the FIA will do it for them by slowing them down to a reasonable level.

That does not make any sense at all.

Do we make runners slow down to let the less able runners catch up? Where is the sport in that?

It is bonkers..
IMPERATOR REX ANGLORUM

timbo
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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WhiteBlue wrote: 4. The performance adjustment of the budget capped formula's average speed to the avergage speed of the unlimeted budget teams may be a bit tricky but certainly no nightmare for an orgqanization with the resources of the FIA/FOM.
Ok. So you want to "adjust" "average speed".
Imagine that you have a tight pack of say unlimited budget teams and not-so-tight pack of capped-budget teams. And you equalize their "average performance".
What would happen?

Scotracer
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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Sorry but I stand by my remarks that the "performance adjustment" IS a disaster. Further reasoning:

- Where do you draw the line between a team getting it right and the rules allowing them to be faster
- If it's the average speed, then what if you have one team (such as Mclaren seemed earlier in testing) that is much slower than it's peers of the same regulations. This will bring down the average making the regulations seem fair or even the opposite to reality.
- It will taint the championship if any changes are made (look at 2003 when the Michelin tyres were modified because of FIA intervention)
- The different regulations will have different advantages (the unlimited budget may have the advantage in high downforce tracks but the limited with extra engine performance on the high speed circuits)

There are LOADS of problems that aren't worth tackling. Equal regulations for all.
Powertrain Cooling Engineer

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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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If the FIA only had the sense to bing back the turbo-engines, it would then be so easy to adjust each car's performance by a diffentiated turbo-boost inversed to the size of every team's budget, or even between qualification and race?

Hell, DURING the race, when technology surely allows to do this remotely?!
"I spent most of my money on wine and women...I wasted the rest"

DaveKillens
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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Henning wrote:You can't have a 30 million budget and expect teams to develop enough technology that some might be road car relevant
So where does that place the big manufacturers (the real power behind FOTA)?
Well, if this 30 mil scheme actually does get implimented, then eventually the big teams (willing to spend whatever it takes to win) will find themselves being regularly beaten by the 30 mil teams. That's not good press. The real decision makers, the bean counters, will find it very difficult to justify being involved in F1 where there are other methods of positive press and publicity. So staying above the 30 mil cap will become impractical. So there would finally be only two options. Withdraw from F1, or accept the 30 mil scheme. Of course, under the 30 mil scheme everyone is exactly equal, and in racing, that means anyone can fall to the back of the performance results. Coupled with the fact that to accept the 30 mil scheme the company has to open it's books to the FIA for intense scrutiny. Not going to happen. So for large corporations like Toyota or BMW, the board of directors would almost definitely decide that participation in Formula One has become untenable.

And if FOTA goes back to Bernie and try to resume their demands for more money from TV revenue, he will simply state that if they accept the 30 mil scheme then the present revenue-sharing plan would cover their needs.

We need to submit a request to the dictionary and word definition people to change the word "machiavelian" to "maxiavelian" to reflect these modern times.
Racing should be decided on the track, not the court room.

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jddh1
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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I read an Italian article on La Stampa saying that the teams will be meeting again and come up with counter-proposals to the "budget" and "medals" ideas.
Some of them are mentioning a possible strike or fully retiring from the F1 championship within the year.

Basically, I think it is wrong to have duality in the F1 championship. Set the rules and live with them for a period of time. On top of that, more importantly, these rules must apply to all.

Over time, if the 33 mill euro plan is accepted across the field, I don't think we'll see the manufacturers in the same role as we see them today. I believe they will be in F1 but as providers of certain technologies, not as team owners. For example, you'll have Mercedes engines, with Ferrari KERS (Magneti Marelli), with Renault mass dampers, or something like that.

Agerasia
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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Can't we just have some rule stability for once.
Mad Max has a new idea every week!
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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The only thing that can make the 2009 season better is if it doesn't happen.

I hope the teams stay home this season, and let the lawsuits crush Bernie and Max to death, and then open conversations with their replacements.

It is time to get the WWE out of F1!

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ISLAMATRON
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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Scotracer wrote:Sorry but I stand by my remarks that the "performance adjustment" IS a disaster. Equal regulations for all.
I second that... but how bout this...

TV money only for teams who agree to the budget... and unlimited funds teams get no FOM money. 75 mil US budget seems reasonable to me, not including hospitality(that cant possibly make your car faster can it? and it improves the spectacle)

But would the big teams ever sign that Concorde?

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WhiteBlue
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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ISLAMATRON wrote:
Scotracer wrote:Sorry but I stand by my remarks that the "performance adjustment" IS a disaster. Equal regulations for all.
I second that... but how bout this...

TV money only for teams who agree to the budget... and unlimited funds teams get no FOM money. 75 mil US budget seems reasonable to me, not including hospitality(that cant possibly make your car faster can it? and it improves the spectacle)

But would the big teams ever sign that Concorde?
I bet that would be contrary to existing law and contracts. I'm afraid they will have to find a compromise on the budget figure. I reckon the move is primarily aimed at the big spenders (Toyota, Merc, Ferrari) to pressurise them into agreeing on lower budget figures than they have offered so far. And as I have said it is feasable to execute this. FOTA is by no means homogeneous enough to fight this off. In the end they will agree to 50 or 60 mil over two steps and be done. But before they come to the table they allways make a big ballyhoo. That is the tradition and must be adhered to.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

vall
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Re: FIA introduces £30m budget cap

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WhiteBlue wrote:I bet that would be contrary to existing law and contracts. I'm afraid they will have to find a compromise on the budget figure. I reckon the move is primarily aimed at the big spenders (Toyota, Merc, Ferrari) to pressurise them into agreeing on lower budget figures than they have offered so far. And as I have said it is feasable to execute this. FOTA is by no means homogeneous enough to fight this off. In the end they will agree to 50 or 60 mil over two steps and be done. But before they come to the table they allways make a big ballyhoo. That is the tradition and must be adhered to.
when I heard that I first thought that this must be the strategy the FIA came up with to press the big spenders to agree on lower budget FOR ALL TEAMS (Bernie says that there should be cap for everyone but not 30 Mil.. And this was on the next day!!!!).