2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[Phil]

Of course then Hamilton got extremely lucky - as always - and ….

Maybe it isnt as much luck, but experience and maturity of choosing which battles to fight and which to concede to fight another corner/stint/race?

[101FlyingDutchman]

Hamilton himself in two quotes during the post press conference and take note of the order and thought process in quote 1; https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... nYFtQ.html

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

Then talking about the same move on Leclerc who he was also alongside and saying "At one point I backed out, just to make sure we didn't come together"

This wasn't a both of them were expecting the other to concede incident, this was Lewis fully knowing that Max wouldn't back off and still keeping his line. After the touch, he still ran wide on that corner, meaning that he was always ending up in Max's car, his trajectary was never one that was making that corner cleanly

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

And now he has an extra 25 points, a win, millions of dollars worth of damage done to RB in a cost cap year, most likely penalties incoming for Max having to take an extra engine and gearbox and a rival who has had to be hospitalised after a 51G crash

It also puts his reactions after the race completely into context. Because Lewis knew there would be a crash, he wasn't guilty about it happening. He expected the crash, didn't feel bad that Max then crashed out, could celebrate his win fully. Never gave Max any care or consideration in his interview after the race or in any further interviews up until the point he was told he was in the hospital. Then he says, of course you never want things like this to happen....

How can you say, you never want things like this to happen after not changing your line when you knew there would be a crash otherwise?

People may be outraged at me saying this stuff but I am literally using Lewis's own words, so I may not be the person you want to be mad at

If you want to constructively discuss where I am wrong here, please do because I am soley basing this of what Hamilton has said and how he acted after the race

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

You’ve worded it far better then I have in previous posts.

[Ryar]

Hamilton himself in two quotes during the post press conference and take note of the order and thought process in quote 1; https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... nYFtQ.html

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

Then talking about the same move on Leclerc who he was also alongside and saying "At one point I backed out, just to make sure we didn't come together"

This wasn't a both of them were expecting the other to concede incident, this was Lewis fully knowing that Max wouldn't back off and still keeping his line. After the touch, he still ran wide on that corner, meaning that he was always ending up in Max's car, his trajectary was never one that was making that corner cleanly

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

And now he has an extra 25 points, a win, millions of dollars worth of damage done to RB in a cost cap year, most likely penalties incoming for Max having to take an extra engine and gearbox and a rival who has had to be hospitalised after a 51G crash

It also puts his reactions after the race completely into context. Because Lewis knew there would be a crash, he wasn't guilty about it happening. He expected the crash, didn't feel bad that Max then crashed out, could celebrate his win fully. Never gave Max any care or consideration in his interview after the race or in any further interviews up until the point he was told he was in the hospital. Then he says, of course you never want things like this to happen....

How can you say, you never want things like this to happen after not changing your line when you knew there would be a crash otherwise?

People may be outraged at me saying this stuff but I am literally using Lewis's own words, so I may not be the person you want to be mad at

If you want to constructively discuss where I am wrong here, please do because I am soley basing this of what Hamilton has said and how he acted after the race

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

The line he took (aggressive swith to right) and the speed he carried to get there, there was no way he would have made that corner clean. Even if Max would have given room, he would have massively understeered to hit him invariably. He wanted to do or die.

[Sieper]

And he knew, by his own words, Max would be there.

After these corners (maggots and becketts) Max would have been clear. Taken out.

[Big Tea]

I have to say I don't like the way F1 is going. It is so hyped up in the media that fans or even casual watchers can not just accept an incident an let it go.
You go to a boxing match and watch two guys thump each other and discuss it in a friendly manner after, or a rugby game where players are routinely mashed, but get back into it and have a beer with the opposing fans.

I really hope that it does not go as cricket began to at one time and take on football tribalism 100% for or 100% against no middle ground not ended when the whistle blows.*

* This with apologies to the majority of football fans who are fine, but the minority get the publicity.

[basti313]

Hamilton himself in two quotes during the post press conference and take note of the order and thought process in quote 1; https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... nYFtQ.html

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

Then talking about the same move on Leclerc who he was also alongside and saying "At one point I backed out, just to make sure we didn't come together"

This wasn't a both of them were expecting the other to concede incident, this was Lewis fully knowing that Max wouldn't back off and still keeping his line. After the touch, he still ran wide on that corner, meaning that he was always ending up in Max's car, his trajectary was never one that was making that corner cleanly

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

And now he has an extra 25 points, a win, millions of dollars worth of damage done to RB in a cost cap year, most likely penalties incoming for Max having to take an extra engine and gearbox and a rival who has had to be hospitalised after a 51G crash

It also puts his reactions after the race completely into context. Because Lewis knew there would be a crash, he wasn't guilty about it happening. He expected the crash, didn't feel bad that Max then crashed out, could celebrate his win fully. Never gave Max any care or consideration in his interview after the race or in any further interviews up until the point he was told he was in the hospital. Then he says, of course you never want things like this to happen....

How can you say, you never want things like this to happen after not changing your line when you knew there would be a crash otherwise?

People may be outraged at me saying this stuff but I am literally using Lewis's own words, so I may not be the person you want to be mad at

If you want to constructively discuss where I am wrong here, please do because I am soley basing this of what Hamilton has said and how he acted after the race

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

The line he took (aggressive swith to right) and the speed he carried to get there, there was no way he would have made that corner clean. Even if Max would have given room, he would have massively understeered to hit him invariably. He wanted to do or die.

Hmmm....still Ricciardo commented on the point of understeer to be caused by dirty air. I mean the result is the same, but I do not think it was deliberate. More like a Vettel-like moment for Ham.

[dans79]

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

Lewis broke first because he was on the tighter line, but he can only do so much. He can't just spike the brake pedal, he'd lock up and spear into max, and that could of been a much worse accident. After a certain point, the only thing a driver can do is hope it works out, as something's going to happen no matter what.

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

If the stewards thought there was even a hint of this, he would have been disqualified. The fact that he got the second most lientney penalty suggest they didn't!

[Dee]

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

Lewis broke first because he was on the tighter line, but he can only do so much. He can't just spike the brake pedal, he'd lock up and spear into max, and that could of been a much worse accident. After a certain point, the only thing a driver can do is hope it works out, as something's going to happen no matter what.

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

If the stewards thought there was even a hint of this, he would have been disqualified. The fact that he got the second most lientney penalty suggest they didn't!

See, I could absolutely understand and agree with you if it wasn't for his comments and actions with Leclerc. Lewis broke first because he was on the tighter line in that instance as well, but he backed out to avoid contact...

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

Then talking about the same move on Leclerc who he was also alongside and saying "At one point I backed out, just to make sure we didn't come together"

[i70q7m7ghw]

I have to say I don't like the way F1 is going. It is so hyped up in the media that fans or even casual watchers can not just accept an incident an let it go.
You go to a boxing match and watch two guys thump each other and discuss it in a friendly manner after, or a rugby game where players are routinely mashed, but get back into it and have a beer with the opposing fans.

I really hope that it does not go as cricket began to at one time and take on football tribalism 100% for or 100% against no middle ground not ended when the whistle blows.*

* This with apologies to the majority of football fans who are fine, but the minority get the publicity.

Agreed, this thread is just tit for tat that's going around in circles now. The race is over, the penalty was served, the final race classification has been published. If there's a case for an appeal, Red Bull are within their rights to take it further. They haven't indicated they are planning to do that, so it appears the case is closed.

[J.A.W.]

I have to remark IMO, LH has hereby shown the 'true grit' of a real champion, but importantly
also the 'killer instinct' of a properly professional driver, in a calculated but remorselessly
driven application of 'old school hardman', & signally sans resort to emotive hand-wringing...

[JamesS]

Late to the discussion party but in my view this is a racing incident all day long, max had ample additional track to turn later if he wanted. Lewis had no choice but go for the overtake because of draft momentum.

Max can't complain a driver attempts an inside overtake when he forces him on the inside on the straight...

[dans79]

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

There is a difference between expecting the other driver to back down and knowing he won't and still keeping your line

Lewis broke first because he was on the tighter line, but he can only do so much. He can't just spike the brake pedal, he'd lock up and spear into max, and that could of been a much worse accident. After a certain point, the only thing a driver can do is hope it works out, as something's going to happen no matter what.

TDLR: Lewis intentionally crashed with Max to send a message that he wouldn't be pushed around any more

If the stewards thought there was even a hint of this, he would have been disqualified. The fact that he got the second most lientney penalty suggest they didn't!

See, I could absolutely understand and agree with you if it wasn't for his comments and actions with Leclerc. Lewis broke first because he was on the tighter line in that instance as well, but he backed out to avoid contact...

"I was pretty far up alongside him (Max) 1. but I then could see he wasn't going to back-out and 2. we went into the corner and 3. then we collided"

Then talking about the same move on Leclerc who he was also alongside and saying "At one point I backed out, just to make sure we didn't come together"

The issue is we have no time based reference of when he made the Leclerc decisions. As i said, after a certain point, it's just going to happen and there is nothing either driver can do about it.

[PlatinumZealot]

The moral of the story is that Max will learn to to manage risk going forward. Lewis back out to avoid colliding with him at least twice before in this same weekend.

For a textbook inicdent It didn't have to be Lewis on the inside either. It could have been Charles, Nico Rosberg, Vettel or Romain. None of those guys are backing out. What are you gonna do? Throw away 33 points?

This is how you back out of a turn 1 incident:

[nzjrs]

This wasn't a both of them were expecting the other to concede incident, this was Lewis fully knowing that Max wouldn't back off and still keeping his line. After the touch, he still ran wide on that corner, meaning that he was always ending up in Max's car, his trajectary was never one that was making that corner cleanly

...

It also puts his reactions after the race completely into context. Because Lewis knew there would be a crash, he wasn't guilty about it happening. He expected the crash, didn't feel bad that Max then crashed out, could celebrate his win fully. Never gave Max any care or consideration in his interview after the race or in any further interviews up until the point he was told he was in the hospital. Then he says, of course you never want things like this to happen....

In addition, Lewis's immediate reaction in the car was relatively calm. He seemed to be unsurprised by the collision and unfazed by it.

I note that such a reaction in the immediate aftermath, and somewhat consistently after the race, could be interpreted as a degree of premeditation in him allowing himself to wash wide into Max (or not take avoiding action, pick as you wish). It could also just be that he has more wisdom and experience in knowing how these things usually play out.

(I still think this was a racing incident, FWIW)

[dans79]

I have to say I don't like the way F1 is going. It is so hyped up in the media that fans or even casual watchers can not just accept an incident an let it go.
You go to a boxing match and watch two guys thump each other and discuss it in a friendly manner after, or a rugby game where players are routinely mashed, but get back into it and have a beer with the opposing fans.

I really hope that it does not go as cricket began to at one time and take on football tribalism 100% for or 100% against no middle ground not ended when the whistle blows.*

* This with apologies to the majority of football fans who are fine, but the minority get the publicity.

Imo, its because far to many of the younger fans have never participated in sports of any type. Participation in sports has been trending down significantly over the last 2 and a half decades or so. To many kids play nothing but video games now, and thus don't have a proper grasp on reality, sportsmanship, or what it's like to make split second decisions with major consequences.

Add in the extreme polarization effect of social media, and you get what we have today!