2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[dans79]

The idea that the punishment should not be related to the severity of the impact is a nice one, but you have to consider what would have happened if Max had been knocked unconscious, and then it emerged that he had a hematoma and needed emergency surgery and was out of racing for months.
In that scenario, I find it impossible to believe that the FIA and Liberty could survive the PR impact of saying that the initial 10 second time penalty was all they would be levying as punishment.

They say that consequences have no impact on the penalties, that each incident is considered in isolation, and who the driver is does not matter. However we have proof that that's not always true. So the FIA contradicts themselves....

https://www.racefans.net/2012/09/02/gro ... ner-crash/

Grosjean car struck Fernando Alonso’s Ferrari dangerously close to the cockpit. Four drivers were eliminated in the crash, including Grosjean, Hamilton, Alonso and Sergio Perez. Kamui Kobayashi’s car was also badly damaged.

The Lotus driver was also fined €50,000 for the collision.

The stewards explained the penalty as follows: “The stewards regard this incident as an extremely serious breach of the regulations which had the potential to cause injury to others. It eliminated leading championship contenders from the race.

https://www.racefans.net/2012/12/08/gro ... explained/

IA Institute deputy president Garry Connelly, who served as a steward at the several races this year including the Belgian Grand Prix, explained the thinking behind Grosjean’s ban:

“That incident could have completely changed the outcome of the FIA’s premier championship. But what Romain got the extra penalty for was not that, or at least not wholly for that.

“When you’re a relatively new driver to Formula One and you have the privilege of driving in a potentially winning or podium finish car, you’re mixing it with a group of drivers who have many years more experience than you do at the sharp end of the field.

“It therefore behoves you, in our view, to exercise greater care and attention because you are, in our view, with all due respect, the new kid on the block and maybe a little out of your league compared with the guys around you at that end of the grid.

[Big Tea]

The idea that the punishment should not be related to the severity of the impact is a nice one, but you have to consider what would have happened if Max had been knocked unconscious, and then it emerged that he had a hematoma and needed emergency surgery and was out of racing for months.
In that scenario, I find it impossible to believe that the FIA and Liberty could survive the PR impact of saying that the initial 10 second time penalty was all they would be levying as punishment.

On the outer edge of this, how would a discarded visor strip in a brake cooling duct leading to a failure and multi car pile up be judged? Or more realistic a tap on one car by anther sending it off track, clipping a wall then coning back on and taking multiple cars out. Who gets 'suspended'? the first driver that does a light clip?

[Just_a_fan]

Masi mentioned that the penalty system doesn't take into account the impact of the incident, which is such a critical aspect in racing. If the governing body doesn't recognize this and if it need to forced by teams to incorporate it, it's actually a good thing for the sport. The governing system need to improve and FIA doesn't recognize it themselves. The penalties have been farsicical at best and they are afraid of charging penalties to the top teams. Race stewards have been erratic and inconsistent and to that effect, an external force being applied should move the sport in the right direction.

How do you define consequences? Is it only the force of a resulting impact? The cost of the damage? The loss of points for the other driver and his team? The affect on another driver's title chances? All of these?
{Doesn't matter text}

Impact is the race result of a driver that got hit and the position in the race when taken out. When stewards identify the guilty party, surely they can asses the impact as well. No rocket science there. Rules cannot be static and they should evolve as the understanding progresses. Not making an attempt to improve is stupidity and justifying the lack of trying as if it is impossible is going backwards in evolution.

So the examples in the "doesn't matter text" would be - no consequence as neither driver is in the points, so no punishment; ban for a season because the consequence is a driver losing the race and the title; and a small penalty for taking out a point scoring driver who wasn't going to win the race or title. Interesting.

[El Scorchio]

But I can't help but feel Max struggles as a person in the strict boarding school run by Helmut. I hope he moves one day so we can see the true Max.

Calling it a boarding school it putting it nicely. Based on past drivers comments and those of some of their past academy drivers, he is more like an abusive and overbearing parent imo. Phone calls all hours of the night. When you answer them you get insults and expletives hurled at you, and then hung up on.

for example one of the nicer phone calls!
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/daniel-ricc ... 14156.html

That's when Ricciardo revealed the memorable three words.

"I knew it was going to be tough because the next words were, a lot of silence, then 'you're an idiot' and hung up," he said.

This adds so much to the technical quality of this forum.

Those in glass houses....

[Tizz]

We had probably four or five of these kinds of fights between lewis and max (Imola, Barcelona, Portugal and Silverstone two corners earlier). In each of those, Max would take the whole track going on the inside and literally leaving lewis no room at all. Lewis here even left room. There is no rule saying you have to hit an apex but there is a rule saying you have to leave room to another driver that is alongside of you (which Max didn;t do a single time before).

You really need to check the footage. Hamilton missed the apex by a year and a half. There was plenty room.

He missed the apex because Max bashed his steering straight.

He was never going the hit the apex. From the report from the stewards:
"Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside." You really need to check the facts.

[Just_a_fan]

But I can't help but feel Max struggles as a person in the strict boarding school run by Helmut. I hope he moves one day so we can see the true Max.

Calling it a boarding school it putting it nicely. Based on past drivers comments and those of some of their past academy drivers, he is more like an abusive and overbearing parent imo. Phone calls all hours of the night. When you answer them you get insults and expletives hurled at you, and then hung up on.

for example one of the nicer phone calls!
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/daniel-ricc ... 14156.html

That's when Ricciardo revealed the memorable three words.

"I knew it was going to be tough because the next words were, a lot of silence, then 'you're an idiot' and hung up," he said.

This adds so much to the technical quality of this forum.

It adds context to the discussion. As such it's more useful than your comment. (and this one too, of course! )

[maxxer]

wow page 103 , i do love the posts from the experienced posters who dont have fan boy issues even though they are fans in some cases.
One of things passed me to penalize how hard on the outcome , but that depends on the circuit no ? If Grosjean was slightly touched and died in that fireball what would the penalty be ?
Compared to the same touch somewhere else when the driver would may spin or have to go to the run of area ?

[Wouter]

Phone calls all hours of the night. When you answer them you get insults and expletives hurled at you, and then hung up on.

for example one of the nicer phone calls!
https://au.sports.yahoo.com/daniel-ricc ... 14156.html

That's when Ricciardo revealed the memorable three words.

"I knew it was going to be tough because the next words were, a lot of silence, then 'you're an idiot' and hung up," he said.

You are always terribly good at making others look bad.
This time you do so by leaving out the context.
Moreover, you say: "for example one of the nicer phone calls!", while the article says: "most painful phone calls".
So you make it appear that his other phone calls are much more annoying!
Moreover, Helmut's answer was justified, because it was incredibly stupid what Ricciardo had done so right before his F1 test!

Marko's most painful phone call came before the 2010 season, when a 20-year-old Ricciardo was one of the favourites to take out the Formula Renault 3.5 Series championship.

"About two weeks before the test – and we only had two tests, so it was limited – basically I had a crash on my mountain bike and fractured my wrist," he said.

"I knew I couldn't do the first test. I could hardly move my hand. But I flew to Jerez in Spain to try and show that I was going to at least try.

"I did the outlap and came straight back to the pits. I just said 'sorry guys, I can't'. Then my phone rings.

"Helmut: 'What happened?' and I was like 'I really tried, I couldn't, I'm so sorry but I'll let it heal and don't worry I'll be ready for the first race'."

Rosberg jumped in: "Did you think that was it for me and Red Bull?"

That's when Ricciardo revealed the memorable three words.

"I knew it was going to be tough because the next words were, a lot of silence, then 'you're an idiot' and hung up," he said.

And "Phone calls all hours of the night." Thats a lie! Marko sometimes calls at 7 a.m., but when the drivers don't pick up the phone, he calls them next time later, not so early again.
According to Yuki, Vettel, Pierre and Max.

[Tizz]

I want to point out that in the end, those two cars made contact by a mere couple of centimeters, an inch.
While the drivers look forward, not to the side.
At 300 km/h (OK, 260).
Turning under braking.
In changing grip conditions (cold tires).

The hunt for a guilty party looks excessive in a collision that was extremely close to not being a collision.

I think the point is that it should not have been anywhere near a collision. I think the point is that the championship is so incredibly close that this in the end very well may have been decisive. That would be a total anticlimax on the first decent season in almost a decade. But most of al it is about decisions and intentions. If you mean that is was a small contact, I beg to differ as Max' suspension was ripped apart on impact.

I don't know if it is mentioned in other posts but according to the Algemeen Dagblad, Marko announced that lawyers are looking into the matter.

[maxxer]

I want to point out that in the end, those two cars made contact by a mere couple of centimeters, an inch.
While the drivers look forward, not to the side.
At 300 km/h (OK, 260).
Turning under braking.
In changing grip conditions (cold tires).

The hunt for a guilty party looks excessive in a collision that was extremely close to not being a collision.

I think the point is that it should not have been anywhere near a collision. I think the point is that the championship is so incredibly close that this in the end very well may have been decisive. That would be a total anticlimax on the first decent season in almost a decade. But most of al it is about decisions and intentions. If you mean that is was a small contact, I beg to differ as Max' suspension was ripped apart on impact.

I don't know if it is mentioned in other posts but according to the Algemeen Dagblad, Marko announced that lawyers are looking into the matter.

Well if we want stricter rules Max ran wide in turn 1 and rejoined the track in a unsafe manner pushing hamilton aside
then there was other contact as well so maybe his tire was tired of being touched anyway

[Mogster]

You really need to check the footage. Hamilton missed the apex by a year and a half. There was plenty room.

He missed the apex because Max bashed his steering straight.

He was never going the hit the apex. From the report from the stewards:
"Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside." You really need to check the facts.

Which facts?

From the many images posted in this thread I don’t see how you can say if Hamilton would have got to or close to the apex when he’s hit way before. Watch his hands, he’s not under steering wildly, he was clearly steering to the right, backing off to tighten his line knowing Max would be on the outside at corner exit. At the moment of impact he momentarily steers left, it appears caused by the force of the impact, then yes he misses the apex. We’ll never know if he would have made the apex without the collision.

I don’t think it matters. Both could have done more to avoid the collision but Max had more to lose.

[maxxer]

I guess at pirelli they are now hoping no one starts a discussion how easy that tire left the rim could have injured the fans who were finally back

[Tizz]

He missed the apex because Max bashed his steering straight.

He was never going the hit the apex. From the report from the stewards:
"Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside." You really need to check the facts.

Which facts?

The report from the stewards for instance. They have access to a lot more information than we here in the forum and have a lot more expertise than most of us.

[maxxer]

He was never going the hit the apex. From the report from the stewards:
"Car 44 was on a line that did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside." You really need to check the facts.

Which facts?

The report from the stewards for instance. They have access to a lot more information than we here in the forum and have a lot more expertise than most of us.

Both wouldnt have reached the apex as i saw it over and over by now maybe if that would put their cars in reverse they could touch it why is it important to reach the apex when you are side by side ?

[Big Tea]

I guess at pirelli they are now hoping no one starts a discussion how easy that tire left the rim could have injured the fans who were finally back

I don't think it was the tyre, it was the retaining lip on the rim. It had been touched previously.

However, with ultra high (for F1) pressures and a stiffer shoulder, it may have been more than the wheel was designed for overstress.