2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[SuperCNJ]

Alonso's comments perfectly illustrate the rationale that an experienced driver has and one that I often think is lost with the obsession with racing lines and calculation's on who specifically had the corner.

Hamilton did well and got his car alongside Verstappen going into a turn. Regardless of lines, hitting the apex and corner angle the car was is there. It's a problem and being the car on the outside once it's there you have to adjust what you do.

Verstappen see's him when he goes to turn in, then adjusts, then turns fully into the corner with full knowledge Lewis is there. He might've hoped Lewis would brake harder but he took the risk knowing he was there. Hamilton at this point is pulling out of the move knowing they're going to collide but it's too late and because he pulls out it's why it's front left to rear right.

It's a racing incident and a poor judgement on Max's part to defend like that given the championship situation.

Much like for years Hamilton has treated Verstappen with a wide berth because he wasn't fighting that fight, Verstappen should've been wise enough to not fight a driver who has to win so strongly when he had such a lead.

Great race though....

“It is difficult from the outside,” said Alonso. “It looked quite close, Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max.

“So, in a way, Lewis could not disappear from the inside line, it’s not that you can vanish.

https://the-race.com/formula-1/alonso-h ... pen-clash/

This pretty much sums up my view on it. I would add that there is no rule about hitting the apex, in fact how often do drivers hit apexes when they're in a battle with another car? Your focus would be to keep the other guy behind you and not lap time so you'd be taking lines that you wouldn't normally take, the point about the apex is not particularly relevant imo.

Also, if LH did take a tighter line and hit the apex, where do we think MV would be? He'd just take up the space that LH gives him and who knows, it might still be a similar outcome. We know MV will take every inch (and a bit more) he is given, so my guess is LH was probably saving a bit of margin in case he was pushed off again (Imola), but not expecting MV to suddenly turn in so sharply.

Yes, LH could have given a little more space and avoided the collision, but equally, MV could have done the same. It's not like MV had no space to make the turn. In fact, he had much more space to use. I think the problem is, people focus on the outcome. Had they both been unscathed after coming together, would LH had got a penalty? Or if LH had sustained more damage than MV, like when he ran over LH's front wing at Imola, should that have been a penalty for MV?

It kind of reminds me of the incident with Ocon in 2018 where I just think MV expects the other driver to disappear and turns in like they're not there. It was unnecessary to battle EO, why risk winning the race for a backmarker FFS? So what if EO gets a penalty or race ban, you've lost the race. Same at Silverstone, it's lap 1, not lap 52.

Anyway, in my opinion, overall both had some fault in it but neither intended to collide. Racing incident.

[Jolle]

I like this one: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... y9ijd.html

“Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added.

Just more food for thought that RedBull is pushing the narrative that Hamilton is the villain (while of course, their driver is know to tell journalist that he might headbutt them, pushing around fellow drivers after an accident and refusing to apologise)

becoming more and more filthy tactics the more you think about it.

[dans79]

I like this one: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... y9ijd.html

“Turn 1 was mega. I mean Max, that was full Max Verstappen – he was just going for it – and he positioned the car fantastically well,” said Horner after the Spanish GP. “He tucked in, he got a little bit of a tow and a bit of momentum. And yeah he just braked later and ran the car wide. Thankfully Lewis had got out of it because otherwise he would have ended up in the fence,” he added.

Just more food for thought that RedBull is pushing the narrative that Hamilton is the villain (while of course, their driver is know to tell journalist that he might headbutt them, pushing around fellow drivers after an accident and refusing to apologise)

becoming more and more filthy tactics the more you think about it.

Don't forget insulting the stewards publicly when things don't go his way.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/max-v ... 7/4993287/

"We had a really great race, but with those stupid decisions you really kill the sport," Verstappen said.

"It's one idiot steward up there which always makes decisions against me.

I never understood this comment. He's implying a steward has a grudge or bias (imo), Yet he thinks poking the bear is a good idea...

And then a comment like this isn't going to win you any points with the promoter!

Verstappen was frustrated by the "really weird" situation of being unable to challenge the stewards' decision and said he hoped the crowd would stay away from next year's race in protest.

"They decide and you can't do anything against it, which is of course really weird," Verstappen added.

"What can we do? We cannot make up the rules.

"Everybody is loving it; it's great action; you go five or 10cm on the inside of the kerb; everybody is running wide everywhere, they don't say anything, and they kill the race, basically, like that.

"The crowd is loving it and then you do something like that in front of world TV - you pick up somebody from the podium and tell them to go away!

"It's not good for the crowd. I really hope next year nobody is coming, because like this the sport doesn't make sense."

[El Scorchio]

Im still realky frustrated. I read somewhere that Lewis was going to give Max a call to make sure he is oke, but he also told he is not going to make any apoligizes. This makes it even worse!

This forum is also read by a lot of f1 staff and sometimes i hope that the drivers also visit just to read some opinions.
I would like to say to Max and the RBR team, dont pick up the phone and ignore Lewis. Even if you are 100+ ahead in the WC standing, dont accept them celebrating you, dont shake hands, dont spray champain and let them not spray on you.
Even if you win the WC dont let LH come to celebrate you. Please Max, show some dignity and character!

Trust me, F1 team personal do not read the race threads, and very few frequent the forum these days.

Maybe only if they want a good laugh?

[Hoffman900]

I doubt many of them read any of the threads anymore and yeah, either a good laugh or completely horrified.

[Just_a_fan]

Im still realky frustrated. I read somewhere that Lewis was going to give Max a call to make sure he is oke, but he also told he is not going to make any apoligizes. This makes it even worse!

This forum is also read by a lot of f1 staff and sometimes i hope that the drivers also visit just to read some opinions.
I would like to say to Max and the RBR team, dont pick up the phone and ignore Lewis. Even if you are 100+ ahead in the WC standing, dont accept them celebrating you, dont shake hands, dont spray champain and let them not spray on you.
Even if you win the WC dont let LH come to celebrate you. Please Max, show some dignity and character!

Trust me, F1 team personal do not read the race threads, and very few frequent the forum these days.

Maybe only if they want a good laugh?

Shame because there did used to be some good technical contributors from motorsport on the forum. Most/all have drifted away as the aggressive fan arguments became dominant.

[Lock2nl]

So you think with Verstappen on the curbs and with Lewis having 6 feet left on the inside this is the same? But anyway, it was still a stupid move from Max to even try it on Stroll. But that does not justify what Lewis did.

You call it a problem that there are so many Verstappen fans? Maybe you should report it to the mods. Or live with it and accept the fact that Lewis can also screw up.

Don't think anyone is saying Lewis isn't partially at fault here. But I'm not sure where you think Verstappen was on the curb at any point during the incident. He was driving an ever decreasing radius line that would always squeeze Lewis.

Hi Silo.
I wasn't referring to the Silverstone accident with Max on the curb. AMG.TZAN showed a 2020 video with proof that Max is no better than Lewis. In that 2020 race Max was on top of the curb and further trying to avoid Stroll. Lewis on the other hand had 6 feet left towards the curbs. He never showed any intention to go there even for a single foot to avoid Max. There is difference.

[Hoffman900]

So you think with Verstappen on the curbs and with Lewis having 6 feet left on the inside this is the same? But anyway, it was still a stupid move from Max to even try it on Stroll. But that does not justify what Lewis did.

You call it a problem that there are so many Verstappen fans? Maybe you should report it to the mods. Or live with it and accept the fact that Lewis can also screw up.

Don't think anyone is saying Lewis isn't partially at fault here. But I'm not sure where you think Verstappen was on the curb at any point during the incident. He was driving an ever decreasing radius line that would always squeeze Lewis.

Hi Silo.
I wasn't referring to the Silverstone accident with Max on the curb. AMG.TZAN showed a 2020 video with proof that Max is no better than Lewis. In that 2020 race Max was on top of the curb and further trying to avoid Stroll. Lewis on the other hand had 6 feet left towards the curbs. He never showed any intention to go there even for a single foot to avoid Max. There is difference.

Lewis wasn't at his apex yet. This all happened approaching the apex.

Watch JP's video.

[101FlyingDutchman]

I’m not following along on the Lewis missing the apex, he wasn’t even at it yet. Max wasn’t going to hit the apex either or stay in bounds at track exit. Put grass out there and Max would had to have given up the corner way earlier on.

My latter point is a huge problem with this track limits bs. Max (and anyone else) can rail around the outside with no regard to track out and make the claim “well I’m in front”. Well no kidding, because you’re taking a larger radius and if you drop a wheel over the curb, who cares?

I think if Lewis got a penalty, then Sergio should have as well for turning into Kimi as that was even more clear cut in terms of fault.

So on your first point, are you saying the stewards were wrong to observe it and note it down as part of the reason for the penalty?

Secondly. The argument of either being on the outside and making a lunge is the same for being on the inside doing the same. “Well im alongside now” you’ll have to leave me space. Nevermind I can’t make the corner properly. Im alongside so you’ll have to deal with it.

The fia have got themselves in a right mess over how they have applied the rules and changed interpretation on the fly. It’s no surprise the lawyers get called in

[Hoffman900]

I’m not following along on the Lewis missing the apex, he wasn’t even at it yet. Max wasn’t going to hit the apex either or stay in bounds at track exit. Put grass out there and Max would had to have given up the corner way earlier on.

My latter point is a huge problem with this track limits bs. Max (and anyone else) can rail around the outside with no regard to track out and make the claim “well I’m in front”. Well no kidding, because you’re taking a larger radius and if you drop a wheel over the curb, who cares?

I think if Lewis got a penalty, then Sergio should have as well for turning into Kimi as that was even more clear cut in terms of fault.

So on your first point, are you saying the stewards were wrong to observe it and note it down as part of the reason for the penalty?

Secondly. The argument of either being on the outside and making a lunge is the same for being on the inside doing the same. “Well im alongside now” you’ll have to leave me space. Nevermind I can’t make the corner properly. Im alongside so you’ll have to deal with it.

The fia have got themselves in a right mess over how they have applied the rules and changed interpretation on the fly. It’s no surprise the lawyers get called in

They aren't wrong, but it has to be weighted against Max's trajectory as well. IMO, they both entered too fast given their positioning. My opinion is if they didn’t touch, Max runs wide / out of bounds, and should have to concede the position to Lewis, which is fine, it allows him to get Lewis back later. That said, whether that happens or not has been applied inconsistently on lap 1. So knowing this, Max keeps his foot in it and took a “run wide be damned” attitude.

And yes, your second point / argument is what I am saying, and it's the FIA's mess for inconsistent enforcement.

[carisi2k]

Many of you on here should know that club is not a corner you go in to side by side. It is a flat out corner if you are on the correct line or otherwise you have to lift or brake to make the corner. You are either ahead or behind in that corner and considering that Lewis was never ahead of Max the incident is 100% his responsibility. This is not a racing incident, especially at these speeds and especially when the result is one car is totally written off with the driver being sent to hospital for checks because of a 51G impact while the other driver gets away with it and only receives a 10 second penalty.

[carisi2k]

They aren't wrong, but it has to be weighted against Max's trajectory as well. IMO, they both entered too fast given their positioning. My opinion is if they didn’t touch, Max runs wide / out of bounds, and should have to concede the position to Lewis, which is fine, it allows him to get Lewis back later. That said, whether that happens or not has been applied inconsistently on lap 1. So knowing this, Max keeps his foot in it and took a “run wide be damned” attitude.

And yes, your second point / argument is what I am saying, and it's the FIA's mess for inconsistent enforcement.

Your wrong on Max having to concede the position because all the trajectories show Max making the corner and it was Lewis going wide which he actually did even after the contact with Max. If Lewis goes wide after making contact then imagine where he would have ended up if Max did back out and allowed Lewis to have the corner.

[Jolle]

Many of you on here should know that club is not a corner you go in to side by side. It is a flat out corner if you are on the correct line or otherwise you have to lift or brake to make the corner. You are either ahead or behind in that corner and considering that Lewis was never ahead of Max the incident is 100% his responsibility. This is not a racing incident, especially at these speeds and especially when the result is one car is totally written off with the driver being sent to hospital for checks because of a 51G impact while the other driver gets away with it and only receives a 10 second penalty.

It was copse. And there have been several successful overtaking manoeuvres at that corner, one of them from Verstappen on Hamilton in the Sprint race.

[Hoffman900]

No, I’m not.

What trajectories? Max was never going to make the apex with Lewis there.

Here is a test of logic:

If, according to RedBull, Lewis entered the corner at his maximum speed all race. And Max was able to pull ahead at corner entry. And Max was never going to make the apex*, then where is Max going to end up?

They both went full send into the corner and it ended up in tears. Without the red flag, Lewis also gets a DNF and Charles wins, which honestly would have been an outcome I wouldn’t mind seeing.

* Max was never going to make the apex because Lewis was there. He HOPED Lewis wouldn't be there, but Lewis cannot magically make his car disappear. As I pointed out in a previous post, a driver tried this to us and got DQ'ed and penalty points. F1's terms of engagement are different than most other sanctioning bodies for some insane reason, but anywhere else, Max gets majority fault. This isn't a track day, it isn't a video game, this is a real life example.

[RZS10]

I'll reply here since it's completely off topic in the race thread where i replied initially by mistake.

3. He says he backed off with Leclerc. He was fully alongside Leclerc much sooner than with Max. Meaning, he had lesser slipstream effect. Yet, he backed off and didn't made the corner completely comfortably. But, he didn't back off with Max.

He was never even close to being 'fully alongside' Leclerc, let alone earlier than with Max, that's just false.

This shows the biggest overlap he ever got relative to those two drivers.

Just the image:


This is where Lewis' front axle was level with the other car's rear axle


There can't be any reasonable discussion without getting the very basic facts right.