2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[basti313]

I felt this was a racing incident but I am admittedly biased as a fan, what troubles me is the move to punishments being fitted to outcomes rather than the infraction.

Well this is a specialty of F1. Since they introduced the 5 and 10 sec penalties, they are completely all over the place with throwing penalties. These were introduced to judge small rule infractions, not crashes, but are now completely abused for this.
A good racing series like DTM has a strong rule like "if you hit the rear wheel of your opponent and rotate him, you drive through the pits". This has led to astonishing wheel to wheel racing in DTM.
In F1 we have the bullshit of constantly pushing your opponent wide. We saw this with Ros vs. Hamilton and it robbed us all wheel to wheel racing for years.

For me the situation is clear: In Austria they made clear that running wide is a 5sec penalty. So it was clear agenda, even if Ves is run wide, nothing bad happens, not worse than being behind him after lap 1.
This makes the discussion on the apex so stupid: There was no aim to hit the inside apex, no idea why this is discussed all the time. Lewis clearly aimed for the outside apex and hit it perfectly. This was a perfect execution of what was planned.
With Lec the goal was completely different, there the room on the outside should be there to prevent a possible 5sec penalty. So the aim was clear to hit the inside apex.

[SiLo]

mods can we lock this thread? It's pretty much just going nowhere (and I have played my part)

[Tom145145]

I am puzzled with where the hitting the apex rationale comes from as I have never seen this used before. Also this seems to be preemptive as the apex hadn’t been passed. I am not looking at this to exonerate anyone just to understand the judgment, this could have a massive impact on future events.
When fighting wheel to wheel I don’t think you can impose set lines it’s all relative and fast moving. I would also point out the cars width rule does really apply mid corner, you can leave 5 car widths on the inside but the car can’t travel sideways. This is when they use the rule about crowding.
I felt this was a racing incident but I am admittedly biased as a fan, what troubles me is the move to punishments being fitted to outcomes rather than the infraction.

The apex and where it is on certain corners is completely dependent of where you start the corner and where you want to end it. In an overtake you either compromise the entry or the exit, “missing” the common apex. Having to hit the apex means you can’t overtake or take any risks without getting a penalty if you don’t get any room.
In other words, Leclerc could have just turned into Verstappen in Austria without any problem.

That was my understanding, you often here the statements “early apex” and “late apex”. I feel it’s time for professional race steward that are consistent over the whole year, the process needs to be standardised to get standard results.

[Marty_Y]

It was a risky move sending one down the inside at one of the fastest corners on the calendar.

When you miss the apex, you miss the apex and you should be held accountable. This was not aggressive, this was reckless as he didn’t make the apex nor the corner.

Genuinely shocked with the bias from Sky and other powerful interest, because this incident can be reviewed objectively.

I heard claims VER should have left more room. Just watch this clip and focus solely on HAM line (disregard VER in this footage). Where’s he heading? Where’s VER supposed to go? The collision was inevitable, even if VER adjusted his line.



VER left the exact same space LEC did. Difference is that HAM now adjusted his line and took less speed into the corner.

that is making up rules.

I am not making up rules, the stewards also judged it this way (that HAM should be held accountable for missing the apex, despite having a more than a car width of space throughout the whole corner).

You can’t deny HAM wasn’t respecting the car on the outside based on his trajectory. He understeered all the way wide and both lines would eventually collide, even if VER took a wider angle into the corner.

If you watch this video from 13.05 onwards there is a good explanation of why you are wrong and don't understand what the rules actually say.

[ab_f1]

So far the arguments against Lewis are:
1. He wouldn't have made the apex
2. He wouldn't have made the corner
3. The crash was 51G
4. It was pre-meditated

Now for #1, there is no such rule but if that is an issue then anytime a driver misses apex he should be penalized.
#2, No one can say for sure. But if you know that he won't make corner, Max probably is even better judge and would have known. In that situation its even stronger case for him taking a wider line and letting Lewis go out of track.
#3, Unfortunate but does not help with determining cause
#4, I was there at that corner and between they appearing at that corner and stones hitting me, it was barely blink of an eye. TV does not do justice to how quickly it happened. Neither of drivers could have made any calls to get this result.
Actually #2 indicates that neither of them were thinking and were just racing the moment.

Both drivers are operating at a level (off course supported by their machines and teams) which is significantly higher than anyone else on the grid. The stakes are high and so obviously emotions play up.
Once they have had time to cool down (may be 2 weeks, may be 4) they will go back racing as before.
I would say let's enjoy this once in a decade opportunity to see 2 drivers from different teams so close on performance.
Who knows how far the performance of cars will be next year after rules change.

[El Scorchio]

So far the arguments against Lewis are:
1. He wouldn't have made the apex
2. He wouldn't have made the corner
3. The crash was 51G
4. It was pre-meditated

Now for #1, there is no such rule but if that is an issue then anytime a driver misses apex he should be penalized.
#2, No one can say for sure. But if you know that he won't make corner, Max probably is even better judge and would have known. In that situation its even stronger case for him taking a wider line and letting Lewis go out of track.
#3, Unfortunate but does not help with determining cause
#4, I was there at that corner and between they appearing at that corner and stones hitting me, it was barely blink of an eye. TV does not do justice to how quickly it happened. Neither of drivers could have made any calls to get this result.
Actually #2 indicates that neither of them were thinking and were just racing the moment.

Both drivers are operating at a level (off course supported by their machines and teams) which is significantly higher than anyone else on the grid. The stakes are high and so obviously emotions play up.
Once they have had time to cool down (may be 2 weeks, may be 4) they will go back racing as before.
I would say let's enjoy this once in a decade opportunity to see 2 drivers from different teams so close on performance.
Who knows how far the performance of cars will be next year after rules change.

On #2, if Hamilton wasn't making that corner, then I can't see that Verstappen, carrying more speed than Hamilton into it, was going to make it either.

I believe someone else mentioned it, but if he really thought Hamilton was going to overshoot, then early braking and the cutback as Hamilton runs wide is surely the best option.

[Kingshark]

The more I think about it, the more this incident reminds me of Spa 2014.

Rosberg lost most of his wheel to wheel duels against Hamilton in 2014. Hamilton pushed him off the track numerous times in Bahrain and also on the final lap in Hungary. That is why in Belgium, Rosberg finally decided that that he had enough and he wanted to be tough. Unfortunately, his determination to be tough resulted in an accident for which he was to blame. It helped him in the championship, but the court of public opinion turned against him.

Verstappen has been bullying and schooling Hamilton this season. Hamilton finally decided to be tough, but it results in an accident for which he is to blame. Hamilton has benefited from it for now, but outside of the UK the anti-Hamilton sentiment will be growing. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him booed heavily in the next few races.

Bullying yes, schooling not even close. If anything, Hamilton just schooled Verstappen about knowing when to back out of it. You can clearly see how he backed out of it at the Brooklands event though he was much more ahead than Max was in Copse. He simply knew that Max would dive bomb on the inside and take him out if he went for the racing line.

I guess that Rosberg “schooled” Hamilton at Bahrain 2014 by knowing when to back out.

Read that again to understand how ridiculous it sounds.

[nimoraca]

The more I think about it, the more this incident reminds me of Spa 2014.

Rosberg lost most of his wheel to wheel duels against Hamilton in 2014. Hamilton pushed him off the track numerous times in Bahrain and also on the final lap in Hungary. That is why in Belgium, Rosberg finally decided that that he had enough and he wanted to be tough. Unfortunately, his determination to be tough resulted in an accident for which he was to blame. It helped him in the championship, but the court of public opinion turned against him.

Verstappen has been bullying and schooling Hamilton this season. Hamilton finally decided to be tough, but it results in an accident for which he is to blame. Hamilton has benefited from it for now, but outside of the UK the anti-Hamilton sentiment will be growing. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him booed heavily in the next few races.

Bullying yes, schooling not even close. If anything, Hamilton just schooled Verstappen about knowing when to back out of it. You can clearly see how he backed out of it at the Brooklands event though he was much more ahead than Max was in Copse. He simply knew that Max would dive bomb on the inside and take him out if he went for the racing line.

I guess that Rosberg “schooled” Hamilton at Bahrain 2014 by knowing when to back out.

Read that again to understand how ridiculous it sounds.

Whether Hamilton learned it back then, I wouldn't know. He has backed out of a fight with Max on 3-4 occasions this year being on the outside.

[Ryar]

Bullying yes, schooling not even close. If anything, Hamilton just schooled Verstappen about knowing when to back out of it. You can clearly see how he backed out of it at the Brooklands event though he was much more ahead than Max was in Copse. He simply knew that Max would dive bomb on the inside and take him out if he went for the racing line.

I guess that Rosberg “schooled” Hamilton at Bahrain 2014 by knowing when to back out.

Read that again to understand how ridiculous it sounds.

Whether Hamilton learned it back then, I wouldn't know. He has backed out of a fight with Max on 3-4 occasions this year being on the outside.

Did he? Not Imola, where he got his front wing damaged trying to go for an overtake, having lost the position on start.

[Tvetovnato]

The more I think about it, the more this incident reminds me of Spa 2014.

Rosberg lost most of his wheel to wheel duels against Hamilton in 2014. Hamilton pushed him off the track numerous times in Bahrain and also on the final lap in Hungary. That is why in Belgium, Rosberg finally decided that that he had enough and he wanted to be tough. Unfortunately, his determination to be tough resulted in an accident for which he was to blame. It helped him in the championship, but the court of public opinion turned against him.

Verstappen has been bullying and schooling Hamilton this season. Hamilton finally decided to be tough, but it results in an accident for which he is to blame. Hamilton has benefited from it for now, but outside of the UK the anti-Hamilton sentiment will be growing. I wouldn’t be surprised to see him booed heavily in the next few races.

Bullying yes, schooling not even close. If anything, Hamilton just schooled Verstappen about knowing when to back out of it. You can clearly see how he backed out of it at the Brooklands event though he was much more ahead than Max was in Copse. He simply knew that Max would dive bomb on the inside and take him out if he went for the racing line.

I guess that Rosberg “schooled” Hamilton at Bahrain 2014 by knowing when to back out.

Read that again to understand how ridiculous it sounds.

What is it that is so difficult to understand? It’s overly clear that Verstappen would be guilty of similar offences as Lewis was deemed guilty of earlier this year on two occasions, if it weren’t for Lewis backing out of corners that he was entitled to because he was ahead. Divebomb someone and hoping they will leave a room that they aren’t required to is no schooling or racing skill whatsoever, it’s pure damn luck that nothing happens, and a testament to the other driver’s anticipation and self preservation to not risk a huge points loss.

Not that I expect you to change your mind, since you go on and on about the same thing over and over, but above might help you understand what he means at least.

[ringo]

This thread is still alive? lol

Just wait till next race people. Max still has a 7 point lead. Or is there a fair he hassome kind of trauma from the showdown that will affect how he races?
I dont get the reason why people are still angry long after the weekend.

[Just_a_fan]

When did Max leave the track to concede position? Even if a driver ahead leaves track, he can come back ahead as he never lost a position, as long as there is no contact and no "crowding". That's the rule. I didn't see anyone talk about it so far. Only if a driver attempting overtake runs wide, he has to concede. That's what Max did in Bahrain.

Turn 1. Hamilton had a better start and was fully alongside in to T1. Max tried to hang out around the outside and ran wide. He then swept back across the track and if Hamilton hadn't moved sideways, Max would have hit him. It was simply not "rejoin safely" as required.

That doesn't comprehend what you claimed earlier.

I can't comprehend what you mean.

[Just_a_fan]

I guess that Rosberg “schooled” Hamilton at Bahrain 2014 by knowing when to back out.

Read that again to understand how ridiculous it sounds.

Whether Hamilton learned it back then, I wouldn't know. He has backed out of a fight with Max on 3-4 occasions this year being on the outside.

Did he? Not Imola, where he got his front wing damaged trying to go for an overtake, having lost the position on start.

He did it on the very same lap that Max turned in on him. The entry to Brooklands. Max came under him in the braking zone and Lewis went wide to avoid a collision.

[Just_a_fan]

For hardcore Hamilton fans, yes. For the rest of the world, it's a sad reality and a genuine concern.

Er, I think it's the reality in the eyes of hardcore Max / Red Bull fans. The rest of the world just looks at the incident and thinks "yeah, ok, another crash between two drivers, so what?".

You just confirmed what i said, especially considering your established driver loyalty.

If you say so. If you think everyone is jumping up and down in anger then you're mistaken. Most people aren't. Max / Red Bull fans are, most others aren't. The media are happy to stoke up a story that isn't there, but other than that, nope, no one cares.

[Ryar]

Er, I think it's the reality in the eyes of hardcore Max / Red Bull fans. The rest of the world just looks at the incident and thinks "yeah, ok, another crash between two drivers, so what?".

You just confirmed what i said, especially considering your established driver loyalty.

If you say so. If you think everyone is jumping up and down in anger then you're mistaken. Most people aren't. Max / Red Bull fans are, most others aren't. The media are happy to stoke up a story that isn't there, but other than that, nope, no one cares.

A classic oxymoron.
Media is writing the story because there is a reason (51g impact on a human being), you think it's a stoke up, you say no one cares, while clearly there's is a concern all around.