2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[nimoraca]

Indeed, you’re not obliged to hit the apex to make a move according to the rule book.

That doesn’t take away HAM should have been further to the inside as he also has had a car on the outside. VER left him a car width throughout the entire corner.

VER also had a right to take the corner (as he was ahead /they were kinda alongside), so you also got to respect the car on the outside.

Remember Austrian GP? Both Norris and Perez received penalties for this.

Yes he has the right to take the corner, but he also has to leave space since Lewis has a right to make the move. He DID leave space, but could have left more, since he could have anticipated a move. And I guess that’s reflected in the verdict as well by the stewards (the pre-dominantly phrasing). Lewis was a bit more at fault for sure. My main problem is the outrageous debate of whether it was deliberate or not, since it clearly was not.

People claiming it was deliberate.. you just can’t take them seriously.

As a defending driver, the minimum space you have to leave is a car width. VER did that, even slightly more if you would measure it on the inch.

Should he have given more space? Obviously the crash happened, but he’s not entitled to.



Also looking at HAM trajectory, had VER given more space or come in at a wider angle, it wouldn’t have changed much. HAM was understeering all the way to the exit kerb so lines would have eventually crossed.

You can best notice this if you disregard VER in this footage and solely focus on HAM trajectory.

None of the analysts actually looked into HAM trajectory, they only analyzed the incident till the contact.

Understeering to the exit curve, lol. He was barely understeering at all. From the frame by frame footage you can see that he would hit the late apex of the corner. He knew exactly what he was doing and that was forcing Max to not take the ideal line for him, which is what drivers on the inside do all the time. Nothing special here other than high speed impact. If Hamilton crashed hard in Imola being pushed completely off the track we would be talking about that a lot more.

[seense]

End of the day. Hamilton has 99 wins and 7 wdc. Max has none.
7 years in the sport and not much to show for it. Lewis had over 20 wins in less time even before the mercedes dominance.
Hamilton can take his sweet time and place his car on the inside every race and watch Max cut across like an insect flying towards the light.
And it will be perfectly within the rules.
Max is not at the same level in terms of race craft, race management, and mind management. All he has going for him is pace, reflexes and agression. 7 years in and he still comes across as a very talented rookie. He has not matured mentally much.

But fun times ahead. He will crash at least 2 more times this season and it will not be Lewis. It may br Norris, Perez, Bottas or Leclerc who Mad Max swipes across.

What are you talking about. He made less mistakes than Lewis this season.

[Fnatic1]

Yes he has the right to take the corner, but he also has to leave space since Lewis has a right to make the move. He DID leave space, but could have left more, since he could have anticipated a move. And I guess that’s reflected in the verdict as well by the stewards (the pre-dominantly phrasing). Lewis was a bit more at fault for sure. My main problem is the outrageous debate of whether it was deliberate or not, since it clearly was not.

People claiming it was deliberate.. you just can’t take them seriously.

As a defending driver, the minimum space you have to leave is a car width. VER did that, even slightly more if you would measure it on the inch.

Should he have given more space? Obviously the crash happened, but he’s not entitled to.



Also looking at HAM trajectory, had VER given more space or come in at a wider angle, it wouldn’t have changed much. HAM was understeering all the way to the exit kerb so lines would have eventually crossed.

You can best notice this if you disregard VER in this footage and solely focus on HAM trajectory.

None of the analysts actually looked into HAM trajectory, they only analyzed the incident till the contact.

Yes, but the bump with Verstappens wheel also make him lose his steering input for a very brief moment, extending his wide line even more. It really is nip and tuck there.

Verstappen is of course not obliged to leave more space than he did, but the question for himself needs to be if he still should have. Just as Hamilton has been doing up until this point.

Exciting times going forward!

I like discussing with you, you are very reasonable.

For VER to not get killed, he should have backed off before Copse and let HAM go.

VER and HAM lines would have crossed, regardless if VER took a wider line.

VER definitely raced too aggressively considering the position he had in the championship. He should have changed his approach and also take P2’s.

[Tvetovnato]

There is an art to driving dirty. The art is to be as aggressive as possible without braking any rules. It’s the art of dancing in the grey area.

Rosberg talked about that in a recent interview. He said that it frustrated him how Lewis was always able to get away with moves like USA 2015. That’s because Lewis knew how to stay within the grey area. When Rosberg tried to be aggressive (Spa 2014), he ended up overstepping the mark completely.

Verstappen is even better than Hamilton at knowing how to balance the fine line between harsh racing and breaking the rules. The starts in Imola and Spain were a perfect example. Then when Hamilton tried to be aggressive in Silverstone, he ended up overstepping the mark completely and got a penalty.

Ironic how Verstappen is making Hamilton look like Rosberg.

And here we go again. The ONLY reason Verstappen got away with the start in Spain, was because Hamilton let him. If he acted the same as Max in Copse, the result would be the same as in Copse. Full stop. Now move on.

Go to 3:28



That’s what would have happened to Hamilton if he tried to turn in. By the way, Massa did not get any kind of penalty for that.

Yeah, that would be the exact outcome, since they were travelling at the exact same speed, and Verstappen would have gone in at the exact same angle (sarcasm). Lewis might as well have had a dent in the sidepod/floor or a rear puncture or whatever. No way of knowing, which makes the example you provided truly terrible, just as all the others you have brought up.

[Tvetovnato]

People claiming it was deliberate.. you just can’t take them seriously.

As a defending driver, the minimum space you have to leave is a car width. VER did that, even slightly more if you would measure it on the inch.

Should he have given more space? Obviously the crash happened, but he’s not entitled to.



Also looking at HAM trajectory, had VER given more space or come in at a wider angle, it wouldn’t have changed much. HAM was understeering all the way to the exit kerb so lines would have eventually crossed.

You can best notice this if you disregard VER in this footage and solely focus on HAM trajectory.

None of the analysts actually looked into HAM trajectory, they only analyzed the incident till the contact.

Yes, but the bump with Verstappens wheel also make him lose his steering input for a very brief moment, extending his wide line even more. It really is nip and tuck there.

Verstappen is of course not obliged to leave more space than he did, but the question for himself needs to be if he still should have. Just as Hamilton has been doing up until this point.

Exciting times going forward!

I like discussing with you, you are very reasonable.

For VER to not get killed, he should have backed off before Copse and let HAM go.

VER and HAM lines would have crossed, regardless if VER took a wider line.

VER definitely raced too aggressively considering the position he had in the championship. He should have changed his approach and also take P2’s.

Thank you, likewise. Yes, it’s a high possibility that the lines would have crossed. Shame it happened, but that’s life!

[El Scorchio]

Yes, but the bump with Verstappens wheel also make him lose his steering input for a very brief moment, extending his wide line even more. It really is nip and tuck there.

Verstappen is of course not obliged to leave more space than he did, but the question for himself needs to be if he still should have. Just as Hamilton has been doing up until this point.

Exciting times going forward!

I like discussing with you, you are very reasonable.

For VER to not get killed, he should have backed off before Copse and let HAM go.

VER and HAM lines would have crossed, regardless if VER took a wider line.

VER definitely raced too aggressively considering the position he had in the championship. He should have changed his approach and also take P2’s.

Thank you, likewise. Yes, it’s a high possibility that the lines would have crossed. Shame it happened, but that’s life!

A sensible and civil debate! Take a bow both of you

[PlatinumZealot]

I'm really done arguing over the incident itself. People won't change their beleifs over night.

All i know is that Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!

Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.
Rival chassis is destroyed. That will disrupt the rival team's schedules, cost them more money and likely an engine penalty too!

On the driver side the rival driver is shaken up, luckily he haa two weeks to heal... AND bonus points: he will suffer some sort of PTSD every tume he comes up on Lewis now.

So yeah these reprocussions (##blessings## if you are Lewis) or setbacks for the rival should go a far way in fighting the championship.

[cheeRS]

Well I guess there are "people jumping up and down in anger" after all.

Agree that there are quite a few questionable moves from VER from the past. But he's tested the limits and is a hard but clean racer these days (and you can find similar videos of HAM). This one was on Hamilton, even though I would let it slide as a race incident this time. But if they dont punish it, then drivers will be pushing each other out each race.

I hope VER doesn't take this as an invitation to race even harder now. A retribution move would surely be punished much harder to set a precident.

He doesn’t race cleaner these days.

Horner even admitted that at Barcelona that if Lewis didn’t back out, they were crashing. He then applauded the move by Max and called it “full Max Verstappen”.

So when Max goes charging into a corner, and the other driver backs out, it’s worthy of admiration and praise, but if the other driver doesn’t, and they make contact, they’re calling for the other’s head on a stake.

Imola was the same story.

The videos and quotes are all out there for all to read.

The reason being that HAM move in this instance was clumsy to say the least as he didn’t make the apex. That’s why he is criticized for this.

In racing, there’s a subtle difference in between being aggressive or reckless.
The racing prior to Copse was aggressive, Max made the apex at Brooklands for example.
At Copse, Lewis missed the apex, thus can be regarded as reckless in my opinion as he misjudged it.

It's not always possible to "make the apex" when you're battling someone [nearly] side-by-side, let alone going 190MPH. Anyway...

“In the end for our outcome it didn’t make any difference but I can understand people who maybe don’t understand there is no obligation on you to hit the apex of the corner, that you don’t have to have your whole car in front of the other car.

“I can understand that if you are seeing it from that perspective you might think that the car coming from behind has some sort of obligation to make sure that no crashes take place, but if you look at the stewarding document then I think that Lewis did nothing wrong,”

From The Race.com article linked to in the last post.

[Tommy Cookers]

.... Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!
Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.

our lovely BBC is still telling me (via their tv text news) that ....

Hamilton scored 26 points .... and ....
Bottas scored 16 points

if there is a tie for fastest lap do both drivers get a point ?

[Just_a_fan]

Girls club still busy I see ..
Anyone care for some tea ?

Thanks, but after a hot day I'm having a cold one in the pub.

[cooken]

I'm really done arguing over the incident itself. Peopl won't change their beleifs over night.

All i know is that Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!

Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.
Rival chassis is destroyed. That will disrupt the rival team's schedules, cost them more money and likely an engine penalty too!

On the driver side the rival driver is shaken up, luckily he haa two weeks to heal... AND bonus points: he will suffer some sort of PTSD every tume he comes up on Lewis now.

So yeah these reprocussions (##blessings## if you are Lewis) or setbacks for the rival should go a far way in fighting the championship.

The RB side is definitely unsettled now and Merc has a big pile of much needed momentum. However...

Joking about PTSD and rejoicing in a driver's physical anguish is in poor taste. You can be better than that.

[Big Tea]

.... Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!
Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.

our lovely BBC is still telling me (via their tv text news) that ....

Hamilton scored 26 points .... and ....
Bottas scored 16 points

if there is a tie for fastest lap do both drivers get a point ?

Points for sprint race?

[PlatinumZealot]

.... Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!
Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.

our lovely BBC is still telling me (via their tv text news) that ....

Hamilton scored 26 points .... and ....
Bottas scored 16 points

if there is a tie for fastest lap do both drivers get a point ?

Ah. The sprint Q points. Forgot about those!

[Kingshark]

Hamilton fans who complain about Verstappen’s driving at the start of Spain and Imola lack an astonishing amount of self awareness. Verstappen probably learned those moves from Hamilton himself, when he was driving against Rosberg. USA 2015 is one of the ugliest blatant cases of forcing a driver around the outside off that I’ve ever seen.

On the other hand, hitting the rear wheel of the driver around your outside and sending him into a spin, when that said driver left space down the inside, has historically been punished with penalties. That’s the precedent set by the stewards.

[Marty_Y]

.... Lewis and Mercedes have benefited big time over this!!
Bagged 25 points to cut the lead down to 8 Pts.
Bagged 40 constructors points.

our lovely BBC is still telling me (via their tv text news) that ....

Hamilton scored 26 points .... and ....
Bottas scored 16 points

if there is a tie for fastest lap do both drivers get a point ?

Yep the quality and accuracy of the BBC has declined significantly recently I'm afraid.

Hamilton 25
Bottas 15

Perez had fastest lap but didn't bank the point because he finished outside the top ten.

Hamilton is now just 8 points behind in the WDC.
Mercedes is 4 points behind in the constructors.