Intake Valve and Feliks' ideas

[Rodak]

This thread has really blown off course.

Or maybe it's gone off the rails.

Certainly there are a few screws loose.

It reminds me of a certain other thread except it's not supposed to fly.......

[Tim.Wright]

It's a pretty easy mathematical proof to test the feasibility. If LiftForce x TotalTransmissionRatioToWheels x TransmissionEfficiency / WheelRadius is greater than TotalDragForce then it will work.

Felix has all the geometry and transmission ratios to put numberd to it. There is no need to build anything - just a few physics calcs and less handwaving.

[Feliks]

It's a pretty easy mathematical proof to test the feasibility. If LiftForce x TotalTransmissionRatioToWheels x TransmissionEfficiency / WheelRadius is greater than TotalDragForce then it will work.

Felix has all the geometry and transmission ratios to put numberd to it. There is no need to build anything - just a few physics calcs and less handwaving.

Well, thanks for the open head .. but it's not that simple .. but much simpler than it used to be .. finally, there is a great NASA calculator that finally works without any Java .. I recommend you use it .. just move the slider . We can estimate the force of pressure, because a man does not produce more, so it can never be greater than all his weight ... and a vehicle even with one man is driving ..
Best regards and nice new learning ..
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/foil3.html
Andrew

[Tim.Wright]

It's a pretty easy mathematical proof to test the feasibility. If LiftForce x TotalTransmissionRatioToWheels x TransmissionEfficiency / WheelRadius is greater than TotalDragForce then it will work.

Felix has all the geometry and transmission ratios to put numberd to it. There is no need to build anything - just a few physics calcs and less handwaving.

Well, thanks for the open head .. but it's not that simple .. but much simpler than it used to be .. finally, there is a great NASA calculator that finally works without any Java .. I recommend you use it .. just move the slider . We can estimate the force of pressure, because a man does not produce more, so it can never be greater than all his weight ... and a vehicle even with one man is driving ..
Best regards and nice new learning ..
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/k-12/airplane/foil3.html
Andrew

Take the lift and drag from the nasa app and put it in my formula to see if you device works. Every other discussion is a waste of time.

Don't forget to include joint friction in the TransmissionEfficiency terms.

[PhillipM]

finally, there is a great NASA calculator that finally works without any Java...

... which only works for magic infinitely long airfoils and makes serious assumptions about turbulance for best case figures. As anyone with any even basic or cursory form of aero knowledge can tell you.

Something railroad width you'd be lucky to match half of what that calculator says for efficiency.

You see that great big bit of red text on the Foilsim page with *warning - warning - warning - warning* all over it telling you not to use it for design and it's just an approximation for fun. Yep, there you go.

Ironically have some airfoils here I made a little while ago for a project that are almost perfectly the right width, 1500mm, although they're highly cambered and I only have 3 of them, so probably not much use for testing the oscillating machine.
I would guess Felix is using rather thin, symmetrical airfoils with a really short chord, but I then again I don't think the project has been thought through even that far going on all the past designs.

[Feliks]

Well, who would have thought that Newcomen was so close to an adequate solution

Regards Andrew

I also very close to the Technology

http://www.new4stroke.com/handcar1.jpg




Regards Andrew

Anyone can judge, but sometimes it is fitting to read these scraps of Feliks

Check the date of this post....

Feliks has slow thinking, so sometimes he has to go on ...
Andrew

[Rodak]

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

FoilSim is a simulation. It is not reality.
FoilSim is an educational computer program. It is not a design program.

FoilSim was built to help students learn how wings work. It produces the correct trends (for example, doubling velocity will quadruple the lift and drag) but it does not give the exact value of lift or drag. FoilSim uses a very simplified analysis to calculate lift, and it interpolates experimentally measured drag data to determine the drag. The drag data was obtained by students using inexpensive models and an inexpensive wind tunnel. Please do not attempt to design, build, or fly a full scale aircraft using data from FoilSim. It is fine for models, but be careful.

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

Hmmmm.........

[Feliks]

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

FoilSim is a simulation. It is not reality.
FoilSim is an educational computer program. It is not a design program.

FoilSim was built to help students learn how wings work. It produces the correct trends (for example, doubling velocity will quadruple the lift and drag) but it does not give the exact value of lift or drag. FoilSim uses a very simplified analysis to calculate lift, and it interpolates experimentally measured drag data to determine the drag. The drag data was obtained by students using inexpensive models and an inexpensive wind tunnel. Please do not attempt to design, build, or fly a full scale aircraft using data from FoilSim. It is fine for models, but be careful.

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

Hmmmm.........

But about the machine that drives the propeller to the plane you're building it, they didn't mention anything, just to be careful .. hmmmmm

Andrew

[Feliks]

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

FoilSim is a simulation. It is not reality.
FoilSim is an educational computer program. It is not a design program.

FoilSim was built to help students learn how wings work. It produces the correct trends (for example, doubling velocity will quadruple the lift and drag) but it does not give the exact value of lift or drag. FoilSim uses a very simplified analysis to calculate lift, and it interpolates experimentally measured drag data to determine the drag. The drag data was obtained by students using inexpensive models and an inexpensive wind tunnel. Please do not attempt to design, build, or fly a full scale aircraft using data from FoilSim. It is fine for models, but be careful.

****** WARNING ******** WARNING ********* WARNING ********** WARNING ******* WARNING *******

Hmmmm.........

Well, better calculate what big wings this propeller driving machine would have to have, since the dedalus flies at 30 km / h and needs 200 watts for this, which is as much as a man can give on average for 4 hours of flight. should be removed as unnecessary, and the plane could fly even around the world ...

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/mul ... _desc.html

Andrew

[PhillipM]

But about the machine that drives the propeller to the plane you're building it, they didn't mention anything, just to be careful .. hmmmmm

Andrew

Because they're not simulating any of that, so why would they? It's got literally nothing to do with it.
I don't know why you're linking Daedalus, because Daedalus 100% wasn't designed using Foilsim...

[gruntguru]

The discussion of friction is a red herring. Friction loss is a tiny fraction of the power generated by any half decent wind turbine. Linkage joints in Feliks' contraption would also be low friction - could easily be rolling element bearings and besides - the angular velocity is low, so power lost to friction is also low.

[nzjrs]

edit: deleted, was just jokes and spelling mistakes

[PhillipM]

by any half decent wind turbine.

There's the kicker on that one.

[Feliks]

The discussion of friction is a red herring. Friction loss is a tiny fraction of the power generated by any half decent wind turbine. Linkage joints in Feliks' contraption would also be low friction - could easily be rolling element bearings and besides - the angular velocity is low, so power lost to friction is also low.

In the video you can see that this one man has to overcome all this friction and gives a strong force to drive the whole device forward. It can be estimated that the force he has is half his body weight, i.e. about 30 KG. (300 N) And that's enough for the device to move. So if two wings give a force of 2 x 15 KG (150 N), we can expect the effect to be similar and the device to move forward ... here I present NASA calc simulations, which says that at 5 square meters (2 x 2 , 5 m ^ 2) of the surface of these wings, we get it already at a speed of 30 km / h, the speed of this device ... how we have to do with the plane to make it fly) Every speed of this device gives us more strength, to be used for any purpose ... and it correlates with the quadrature of this extra speed .. So says mathematics .. and Feliks ..






Andrew

[Feliks]

Well, I have already shown that such a vehicle can move on its own if we accelerate it to such a speed of 30 km / h. but as a windmill I would be useful, not least because the wind blows, when it needs to add any power it wants ... It is an uncomfortable situation ... ) 5 m ^ 2, gives us a lift of 3290 N. Well, but with this speed, we must also take into account the aerodynamic drag plus friction costs .. they are respectively 596 N + 300 N = 896 N. which we have to subtract from the lift used .. we will have to use 2394 N (~~ 240 KG), And now, by analogy, that is 300 N will give us about 200 Watt what power manages, these 2394/300 = 8 times more power to obtain, that is 8 x 200 W = ~ 1.5 KW of power to obtain at this speed .. By mounting the alternator on such a vehicle, we will get 1.5 KW of power, but all the time, regardless of the weather, and only due to the movement of such a vehicle, 24 / 7. By building a railway track around the city in which you live, let's say with a diameter of 2 km, we will get 6 km of a closed circuit on which we can put such vehicles in order to generate electricity and distribute it to the network using a pantograph, similar to a locomotive electricity .. But now, such a vehicle may have, let's say, 5 wings as in my drawing, which may cause the amount of electricity it produces to increase by 5 times that is, 5 x 1.5 = 7.5 KW. for one vehicle .. now, the length of this track, it will be 6000 meters, and if we put 300 such vehicles every 20 meters each, it will give us 300 x 7.5 = 2250 Kw, or 2.2 MW. but always, without watching the wind blowing .. Of course, you can build 5 such tracks in parallel, for example, and five for the height, then this power will increase by 25 times or 50 MW. Maybe this will satisfy the energy needs of your small town? These are just the first ideas, but for example the track can also go up and down, say 200 meters, like today's windmills, which will give us 400 meters of work. ? The rest depends on your ideas .. ..

Andrew