2021 Hungarian Grand Prix - Hungaroring, July 30 - Aug 01

[101FlyingDutchman]

Haven’t got much time for a lot of the stuff that’s being brought up. But I take issue with you mentioning “too ill to be racing” as part of your delusional bullshittery list. I think I’ve outlined my reasoning, it’s cogent and NOT based on fandom. I am concerned for him. Always easy to say afterwards what the right call is as it’s a risk based assessment. Either way I don’t want to be a championship decided by something like that. It would be tarnished.

But I would HATE to see a nasty accident because a driver is clearly unwell. And with ANY top level athletics, if you’re not 100% mistakes happen. You just aren’t as sharp.

And being unstable on your feet, I’d not be flying my airplane, I’d be sent home by other pilots and not allowed to be near any machinery.

I agree. Your approach was valuable in that you raised the question of whether he should be racing and outlined your reasoning (which was consistent and neutral). Sadly, not everyone else makes the same careful case nor uses qualified statements.

Is there a physical (and mental?) fitness test that drivers have to pass before each GP? If not, should there be? I don't even know if there is a concussion protocol (I assume there must be)?

We've seen drivers, in the past, have to be helped out of the car due to exhaustion/dehydration. Whilst it looks heroic (and probably is, given the conditions under which they've just performed), I think you are right to raise the point that having people driving in such a condition is fundamentally dangerous. Would it be possible to have in car monitoring which would allow the course /team doctor to be able to track the condition of the driver?

Matthew Carter mentioned something, in the recent Missed Apex podcast, on a parallel line of thinking around having a more health-focussed approach when he was managing Lotus (e.g. mandatory gym sessions, scheduled electrolyte refills, etc).

Drivers have a medical.

This would open up a can of worms, not just in Motorsport but sport in general. A small cold, bit of flu or an upset stomage would deem to unable to participate (these are very similar to what will happen in your body when you’re experiencing long COVID types of complains)

Being a bit I’ll, or under the weather, or just ate to little, for anybody that is into sports, really comes in to play right after you’ve been active. You crash. Reserves feel gone, etc. It’s not like having an heart attack on something on track.

Thanks for the considered reply. It IS a can of worms but top athletes withdraw from tournaments/don’t compete all the time if they’re not well. Sometimes they decide/sometimes the team does. The BIG warning sign for me isn’t being tired after the race but clearly the voice comms whilst on track, being completely lost as to what lap of the race it is (and not by 1 lap either). Tell tale signs of impaired cognitive ability.

You may not want to admit it as obviously it has HUGE ramifications if he wasn’t to compete and again, I don’t like championships decided in any way. But for me being totally out of sorts, verging on “delirium” in a cockpit, is a dangerous thing. And I’d have to consider what else could happen eg loss of consciousness etc. It ISNT a big leap and it’s a BIG risk for himself and everyone involved

[Jolle]

I agree. Your approach was valuable in that you raised the question of whether he should be racing and outlined your reasoning (which was consistent and neutral). Sadly, not everyone else makes the same careful case nor uses qualified statements.

Is there a physical (and mental?) fitness test that drivers have to pass before each GP? If not, should there be? I don't even know if there is a concussion protocol (I assume there must be)?

We've seen drivers, in the past, have to be helped out of the car due to exhaustion/dehydration. Whilst it looks heroic (and probably is, given the conditions under which they've just performed), I think you are right to raise the point that having people driving in such a condition is fundamentally dangerous. Would it be possible to have in car monitoring which would allow the course /team doctor to be able to track the condition of the driver?

Matthew Carter mentioned something, in the recent Missed Apex podcast, on a parallel line of thinking around having a more health-focussed approach when he was managing Lotus (e.g. mandatory gym sessions, scheduled electrolyte refills, etc).

Drivers have a medical.

This would open up a can of worms, not just in Motorsport but sport in general. A small cold, bit of flu or an upset stomage would deem to unable to participate (these are very similar to what will happen in your body when you’re experiencing long COVID types of complains)

Being a bit I’ll, or under the weather, or just ate to little, for anybody that is into sports, really comes in to play right after you’ve been active. You crash. Reserves feel gone, etc. It’s not like having an heart attack on something on track.

Thanks for the considered reply. It IS a can of worms but top athletes withdraw from tournaments/don’t compete all the time if they’re not well. Sometimes they decide/sometimes the team does. The BIG warning sign for me isn’t being tired after the race but clearly the voice comms whilst on track, being completely lost as to what lap of the race it is (and not by 1 lap either). Tell tale signs of impaired cognitive ability.

You may not want to admit it as obviously it has HUGE ramifications if he wasn’t to compete and again, I don’t like championships decided in any way. But for me being totally out of sorts, verging on “delirium” in a cockpit, is a dangerous thing. And I’d have to consider what else could happen eg loss of consciousness etc. It ISNT a big leap and it’s a BIG risk for himself and everyone involved

Not knowing what lap it is, is not a sign of ill health but could well be quite the opposite. Drivers/sports people etc get into a state that is referred to as Flow, where the concept of time disappears for the most part. Most people experience this as wel for some periods in their life. Just google "flow, mental state", its quite interesting stuff and very handy in normal life. Rosberg referred to this by the way in the commentary, where he was more then once lost on what lap he was.

how drained someone is, as we've seen in the past several times, only comes when they are done, then, for the lack of a better word, they crash. And I assume anybody here who has done something in flow with a bit of a flu, has experienced the same (I had it once after a gig, played in a punk band, massive fever and felt like sht. As soon as the first kick drum started I played like there was nothing wrong for 1 ½ hour, and well, sharp, etc... but as soon as the encore was done... I fell asleep on the sofa in the backstage

[peewon]

Really? It was alonso who moved further over to the right onto Hamiltons line. I swear some people dont even watch the races yet still feel the urge to make incorrect comments

Its not Hamilton's line. His front tyre is next to Alonso's rear. Thats not sufficiently being along side. The racing line moves right on that straight to open room for the left at turn 4. Actually Lewis is sticking his car in places which is risky just like Copse but this time hes on the outside. Still more risky for Alonso because its like a pit maneuver.

Once great Alonso said: 'all the time you have to leave a space!'

While being shunted out in the middle of a long wide straight, with the understanding that reasonable people know often there is only one line through a corner. There's a reason theres only 1 or 2 places to pass per circuit and none on some.

[Stormblessed]

How that? With putting the car out of position he would have been on the last position...in the pitlane.

I thought the pitlane would be open.

You're right - I didn't realize it had to be a pitlane start. So, I guess there is no grey area nonsense.

[Just_a_fan]

Thanks for the considered reply. It IS a can of worms but top athletes withdraw from tournaments/don’t compete all the time if they’re not well. Sometimes they decide/sometimes the team does. The BIG warning sign for me isn’t being tired after the race but clearly the voice comms whilst on track, being completely lost as to what lap of the race it is (and not by 1 lap either). Tell tale signs of impaired cognitive ability.

Racing drivers often don't know what lap it is. Rosberg, during commentary, stated that he had often not known exactly what lap it was and that it was the sort of important information that the teams needed to tell the driver. INdeed, the pit board usually has some lap indication on it.

[Phil]

Hmmmm....still it is a pity that Ham's front wheel did not touch the rear wheel a bit harder. Would have ended Alo in the runout and Ham right behind Sainz, Vet and Oco after a SC. Would have been fun with Ham fans showing in the frame by frame analysis why he is not at fault and argument why it would have been ok to win the race like this.
We are missing a lot here...

Some of Hamiltons criticism about Alonso’s driving comes down to that he felt he had to pull out to avoid a collision because Alonso was coming over on him, despite him having a substantial part of his car alongside.

If you read the rules, it is clear that both cars have to leave sufficient room and not crowd the other car. Obviously, Hamilton didnt remain there to find out and decided to back out.

Was it his obligation to do so?

If yes, you can pretty much ban all sorts of racing and overtaking except on the main straight and during DRS.

Technically, such an incident was simply not investigated because it was of no concequence. Technically, the consequence was that a driver backed out who perhaps strictly by the rules didnt. No different than moving under braking or jinxing moves to bully other drivers into backing out of an overtaking attempt.

If they had touched and a crash had resulted IMO both drivers would have to be held accountable. One for crowding, the other if he had space left to avoid.

Btw: i am not suggesting the battle was unfair etc. Personally, Hamilton was right to back out - even if by the rules, he had every right to be there, but doing so, would have put his car at a substantial risk.

[Kingshark]

Hamilton jumped out of the way and prevented both cars from being totalled there. You've cut your connection with reality, but honestly, not something I haven't seen before.

The first corner in Spain on heavy fuel is not fast enough for both cars to be totalled. The most likely outcome would have been a bit of wheel-banging and Hamilton being forced wide, not much different from what we saw between Hamilton and Vettel at Spain 2017 when Vettel exited the pitlane.

You talk as if you've never seen a late braking move in your life before. Do you even watch F1?

Sure. Whatever floats your boat. If Max goes the way he does, then he'll just ensure Hamilton wins this year. Look how they manage the risks. It's completely non-existent on Ver's side. He'd rather have contact with an effin Haas and risk damage or crashing, than move another half a meter wide

His opponent has certainly shown himself to be the master of risk calculation this year.

His decision to brake late on the wet part of the circuit heading into Tosa corner was immaculate.
He switched off his brakes on the restart in Baku when he had the win in the bag, absolutely brilliant.
He was judged predominantly at fault for Silverstone and only didn't retire because the red flag saved him.
Doesn't pit for slicks when the track is bone dry and the sun is out in Hungary, another 200 IQ moment.

How you can claim he is the best at wheel to wheel by a wide margin right after that, is beyond logic.

Because I watch Formula 1 and I am a very good judge of talent, it's that simple.

[Hoffman900]

Guys, we have a F1 talent scout here.

[basti313]

Hmmmm....still it is a pity that Ham's front wheel did not touch the rear wheel a bit harder. Would have ended Alo in the runout and Ham right behind Sainz, Vet and Oco after a SC. Would have been fun with Ham fans showing in the frame by frame analysis why he is not at fault and argument why it would have been ok to win the race like this.
We are missing a lot here...

Some of Hamiltons criticism about Alonso’s driving comes down to that he felt he had to pull out to avoid a collision because Alonso was coming over on him, despite him having a substantial part of his car alongside.

If you read the rules, it is clear that both cars have to leave sufficient room and not crowd the other car. Obviously, Hamilton didnt remain there to find out and decided to back out.

Was it his obligation to do so?

If yes, you can pretty much ban all sorts of racing and overtaking except on the main straight and during DRS.

Technically, such an incident was simply not investigated because it was of no concequence. Technically, the consequence was that a driver backed out who perhaps strictly by the rules didnt. No different than moving under braking or jinxing moves to bully other drivers into backing out of an overtaking attempt.

If they had touched and a crash had resulted IMO both drivers would have to be held accountable. One for crowding, the other if he had space left to avoid.

Btw: i am not suggesting the battle was unfair etc. Personally, Hamilton was right to back out - even if by the rules, he had every right to be there, but doing so, would have put his car at a substantial risk.

Funny comment by a die hard Ham fan.
Some years ago we celebrated how Ham constantly crowded Rosberg off the road. What did this guy suffer on the outside line. [-o<
Everyone knows that a Hamilton, an Alonso, a Ves, is not overtakeable on the outside line without contact. Every time a wiener gets crowded off this is how racing goes and the die hard fans explain that you need to break early and cut blah blah blaaaahhhh....
On the other hand every time the big guys come together the wailing about leaving space starts. [-o<

[Kingshark]

But glad that Hamilton is used to all this hate. Hope Max will be OK with all the bad comments on him... Seems not the case since he exploded in the qualy press conf.

Verstappen is not the one who responds to haters on Instagram and posts telemetry on Twitter to explain why he is slow. He's is not the only you should be worried.

[Jolle]

But glad that Hamilton is used to all this hate. Hope Max will be OK with all the bad comments on him... Seems not the case since he exploded in the qualy press conf.

Verstappen is not the one who responds to haters on Instagram and posts telemetry on Twitter to explain why he is slow. He's is not the only you should be worried.

Nah, he just threatens to head butt you if you ask a critical question

but seriously, these are the best of the best, at the top teams every driver is on the top of their game. You make it sound like there is Verstappen, Alonso and the rest is trash and not even worthy of a F3 car. Or is it just some hatred towards Hamilton and Mercedes? and why?

[Phil]

Funny comment by a die hard Ham fan.

Crowding on corner entry and corner exit are two very different things. Your reponse is therefore not relevant to the points i raised. The rules have also been clarified since those incidents with Rosberg, therefore, again, what was then does not apply to today.

[dans79]

Drivers/sports people etc get into a state that is referred to as Flow, where the concept of time disappears for the most part. Most people experience this as wel for some periods in their life.

Exactly, when I was a high-level collegiate runner, long runs were anywhere from 10 to 20 miles. I would do two to five of those a week depending on what time of year it was, and where I was in my training program. If you can't zone out and put your mind in another place it's simply not possible to routinely push your body that hard.

how drained someone is, as we've seen in the past several times, only comes when they are done, then, for the lack of a better word, they crash.

I've done this several times as well, if I had to put in a strong kick during a race, I could push myself so far into lactic acid overload that right after the race I wouldn't be able to stand up, as my legs wouldn't hold me. Sometimes it could take as long as 2 hours to fully recover from it.

[basti313]

Funny comment by a die hard Ham fan.

Crowding on corner entry and corner exit are two very different things. Your reponse is therefore not relevant to the points i raised. The rules have also been clarified since those incidents with Rosberg, therefore, again, what was then does not apply to today.

The more I read your post, the less I understand it....when they banged wheels, Hamilton did not back off, he actually was a bit later on the brake than Alo. Then Alo crowded on the exit. I also do not see a clarification that contradicts the point of crowding.
I do not see anything wrong with the little wheel banging on the entry, that was just driving on the limit by both of them. Everyone had enough space.
My only critics on the entry was on the point that the show here in the forums would have been much better if Ham would have rotated Alo like he did with Ves. But that is not more than a wet dream, not 100% serious...

[codetower]

I don’t get how everyone is surprised/shocked by all the booing, critique, hate towards Hamilton or Mercedes or Verstappen. The same thing happens in just about every sport when someone is really good and has been going on as far back as… well, sports. Mercedes has won the last SEVEN constructors championships in a row. Hamilton has won 6 of the last 7 (7 in total) drivers championships. They will get the boo’s, the critiques for any little thing, the hate… it happens.

Fans have boo’d, hated, looked for any little thing to critique against:

Tom Brady
New England Patriots
Lebron James
Any team Lebron has played for
Michael Jordan
Messi (in his own country at that)
Cristiano Ronaldo
Wayne Rooney
Alex Rodriguez

Michael Jordan actually used to feed off of it. To him, it was a sign he was doing something right that his opponents didn't like.

It’s always happened, and always will. As long as it is kept respectful (no slurs or personal attacks) I see nothing wrong with it. Sure it doesn’t feel great, but in sports it comes with the territory, they just need to take is as a sign that they are really good at what they do.