Should F1 cars have their length/wheelbase reduced?

[piast9]

I've been watching some races from 80's and 90's recently. I've realized how enormously long contemporary F1 cars are. They look and behave so heavy and lumbering. They accelerate like hell but medium and low speed cornering is a joke in modern F1. Then I've looked for some numbers and for example, the allowed wheelbase for 2022 cars is 3600 mm while the iconic MP4/4 had a wheelbase of 2875 mm and by the looks significantly shorter nose and rear wing. The differences are huge. And MP4/4 had also the turbo engine and 150 litres fuel tank.

I started to think what would happen if the overall length and/or wheelbase was reduced by forcing it somehow by the rules. The cars would be lighter (which is good), would have less downforce (keeping it under control is also something that F1 regulations try to enforce). I don't think it would be possible to go back to 575 kg weight limit because of the battery and safety requirements but on the other hand the contemporary materials and technology are significantly more advanced than 40 years ago. What do you think?

[AngusF1]

Yep.

[Stu]

I've been watching some races from 80's and 90's recently. I've realized how enormously long contemporary F1 cars are. They look and behave so heavy and lumbering. They accelerate like hell but medium and low speed cornering is a joke in modern F1. Then I've looked for some numbers and for example, the allowed wheelbase for 2022 cars is 3600 mm while the iconic MP4/4 had a wheelbase of 2875 mm and by the looks significantly shorter nose and rear wing. The differences are huge. And MP4/4 had also the turbo engine and 150 litres fuel tank.

I started to think what would happen if the overall length and/or wheelbase was reduced by forcing it somehow by the rules. The cars would be lighter (which is good), would have less downforce (keeping it under control is also something that F1 regulations try to enforce). I don't think it would be possible to go back to 575 kg weight limit because of the battery and safety requirements but on the other hand the contemporary materials and technology are significantly more advanced than 40 years ago. What do you think?

The FIA really missed a great opportunity, a maximum length, a maximum wheelbase and a maximum track width and maximum height.
Also, accident/injury analysis suggests that a more upright driving position is very beneficial (certainly compared to the reclined position that is favoured now).
With modern material technology applied I would say that a minimum weight of 650kg would be easily achievable (even accounting for the battery mass).

[maxxer]

I've been watching some races from 80's and 90's recently. I've realized how enormously long contemporary F1 cars are. They look and behave so heavy and lumbering. They accelerate like hell but medium and low speed cornering is a joke in modern F1. Then I've looked for some numbers and for example, the allowed wheelbase for 2022 cars is 3600 mm while the iconic MP4/4 had a wheelbase of 2875 mm and by the looks significantly shorter nose and rear wing. The differences are huge. And MP4/4 had also the turbo engine and 150 litres fuel tank.

I started to think what would happen if the overall length and/or wheelbase was reduced by forcing it somehow by the rules. The cars would be lighter (which is good), would have less downforce (keeping it under control is also something that F1 regulations try to enforce). I don't think it would be possible to go back to 575 kg weight limit because of the battery and safety requirements but on the other hand the contemporary materials and technology are significantly more advanced than 40 years ago. What do you think?

The FIA really missed a great opportunity, a maximum length, a maximum wheelbase and a maximum track width and maximum height.
Also, accident/injury analysis suggests that a more upright driving position is very beneficial (certainly compared to the reclined position that is favoured now).
With modern material technology applied I would say that a minimum weight of 650kg would be easily achievable (even accounting for the battery mass).

Totally agree its so ugly seeing these monsters barely able to take the last corner in Monaco nowadays.
Shorter also less area for all the barge boards makes cleaner cars its a single seater for a reason

[Just_a_fan]

Totally agree its so ugly seeing these monsters barely able to take the last corner in Monaco nowadays.
Shorter also less area for all the barge boards makes cleaner cars its a single seater for a reason

They do perfectly well at Monaco. But Monaco is an outlier and certainly one should not design the whole F1 rules just for that race.

It's worth remembering that it's not the wheelbase / car length that causes potential issues - it's the amount of angle the front wheels can be steered. F1 cars have poor turning circles because they have a small steering lock range - that's why they fit one off wishbones / racks to the cars for Monaco. That's not a new thing for the current cars - they've been doing it for many, many years.

The OP made some comment about current cars being a joke in low and medium speed corners - strange that they still manage to be quicker than just about any car in the history of F1 - and that's not all because of the speed on the straights.

I think what we have is a general dislike of the current cars - and that's fine, we all like different things (*) - disguised as an issue with cornering ability. There is not inherent issue in the current cars - they corner fine.


(* - for me, the cars that defined what an F1 car looked like were the MP4/5 - MP4/8 cars and the FW14B, although I well remember earlier cars, these stick in my memory most. Compact and simple. Would I like to see those again? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. Things move on.)

[jjn9128]

(* - for me, the cars that defined what an F1 car looked like were the MP4/5 - MP4/8 cars and the FW14B, although I well remember earlier cars, these stick in my memory most. Compact and simple. Would I like to see those again? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. Things move on.)

The FW15C for me is THE car Like the 14B but more refined. Like going from Mansell to Prost

But on the topic, yes I'd reduce wheelbase if I was in charge.

[Jolle]

The cars wouldn’t be lighter by the way. They have an extra long gearbox to stretch the car. Good chance there is only a few kg in that 30 cm space.

[Just_a_fan]

(* - for me, the cars that defined what an F1 car looked like were the MP4/5 - MP4/8 cars and the FW14B, although I well remember earlier cars, these stick in my memory most. Compact and simple. Would I like to see those again? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. Things move on.)

The FW15C for me is THE car Like the 14B but more refined. Like going from Mansell to Prost

But on the topic, yes I'd reduce wheelbase if I was in charge.

Yes, I guess one could say the FW14-FW15C similarly to the MP4-5-MP4/8. Each being a development in their respective line. But it's the general shape and simplicity that I was referencing rather than specific "this is the one car".

[Just_a_fan]

I wouldn't mind the reintroduction of active suspension, if it allowed for a flat floor again, or at least if it allowed the proposed "tunnel cars" to be run closer to the ground. Having the underside working optimally at all times would reduce some of the problems the cars face and would make for some quick cars too.

[mclaren111]

Totally agree... These cars are almost as long as my C Class Coupe...

FW & Nose for 2022 are also ridiculous...

[Mclarensenna]

https://uk.motor1.com/news/420806/how-b ... cedes-car/

5.7 metres long is crazy. It is longer than a toyota landcruiser, and mercedes s class even.
Why does a single seat racecar for 1 driver need to be longer than cars that can seat 5 passengers and luggage?

[henry]

Totally agree... These cars are almost as long as my C Class Coupe...

FW & Nose for 2022 are also ridiculous...

I think you’ll find they’re a metre longer than your coupe. More like your medium wheelbase Sprinter van. Imagine 20 Sprinter vans charging to St Devote, or round La Source and that’s today’s F1, and tomorrow’s.

[maxxer]

Totally agree its so ugly seeing these monsters barely able to take the last corner in Monaco nowadays.
Shorter also less area for all the barge boards makes cleaner cars its a single seater for a reason

They do perfectly well at Monaco. But Monaco is an outlier and certainly one should not design the whole F1 rules just for that race.

It's worth remembering that it's not the wheelbase / car length that causes potential issues - it's the amount of angle the front wheels can be steered. F1 cars have poor turning circles because they have a small steering lock range - that's why they fit one off wishbones / racks to the cars for Monaco. That's not a new thing for the current cars - they've been doing it for many, many years.

The OP made some comment about current cars being a joke in low and medium speed corners - strange that they still manage to be quicker than just about any car in the history of F1 - and that's not all because of the speed on the straights.

I think what we have is a general dislike of the current cars - and that's fine, we all like different things (*) - disguised as an issue with cornering ability. There is not inherent issue in the current cars - they corner fine.


(* - for me, the cars that defined what an F1 car looked like were the MP4/5 - MP4/8 cars and the FW14B, although I well remember earlier cars, these stick in my memory most. Compact and simple. Would I like to see those again? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. Things move on.)

Ahh those cars yeap they stick in memory true things have moved on since then but wow what the drivers could get out of those

Good comment about the steering lock issue btw

[Hoffman900]

Indy Cars are around 3000mm +/- 50.8mm or so based on configuration. Size wise, they look much better than Formula 1 cars.

It's not even a safety argument because Indy Cars allow drivers to walk away and survive crashes that are magnitudes larger than anything seen in F1. Max's and Kubica's type crashes in terms of g load happens a few times per season, and sometimes well beyond.

The wheel base absolutely has an impact on tracks like Monaco. The Formula 2 and 3 cars get around Macau just fine. Beyond Monaco, they're just too big for most of the circuits, regardless. Without DRS (gimmick), the racing would be worst than it was 20 years ago.

The new 18" wheels are going to make the new generation of F1 cars more proportional looking, but only compared to themselves. In person, they'll look like land yachts.

[Jolle]

Indy Cars are around 3000mm +/- 50.8mm or so based on configuration. Size wise, they look much better than Formula 1 cars.

It's not even a safety argument because Indy Cars allow drivers to walk away and survive crashes that are magnitudes larger than anything seen in F1. Max's and Kubica's type crashes in terms of g load happens a few times per season, and sometimes well beyond.

The wheel base absolutely has an impact on tracks like Monaco. The Formula 2 and 3 cars get around Macau just fine. Beyond Monaco, they're just too big for most of the circuits, regardless. Without DRS (gimmick), the racing would be worst than it was 20 years ago.

The new 18" wheels are going to make the new generation of F1 cars more proportional looking, but only compared to themselves. In person, they'll look like land yachts.

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111