Should F1 cars have their length/wheelbase reduced?

[jjn9128]

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111

Indycar is also relatively cheap. And designed to fit...errrrr... less athletic drivers... e.g. JPM and Tony Stewart fit in it.

But I think they're still high end race cars. You could argue the product is better even if it's less "high-tech".

[Hoffman900]

Indy Cars are around 3000mm +/- 50.8mm or so based on configuration. Size wise, they look much better than Formula 1 cars.

It's not even a safety argument because Indy Cars allow drivers to walk away and survive crashes that are magnitudes larger than anything seen in F1. Max's and Kubica's type crashes in terms of g load happens a few times per season, and sometimes well beyond.

The wheel base absolutely has an impact on tracks like Monaco. The Formula 2 and 3 cars get around Macau just fine. Beyond Monaco, they're just too big for most of the circuits, regardless. Without DRS (gimmick), the racing would be worst than it was 20 years ago.

The new 18" wheels are going to make the new generation of F1 cars more proportional looking, but only compared to themselves. In person, they'll look like land yachts.

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111

At the end of the day, racing is entertainment. People watching brings sponsors which brings money. Without eyes and without sponsors, it's just amateur racing for the well to do.

Indy Car has done a better job of making an entertaining, on track product. Nashville sucked this past weekend, but show me a clip of a modern F1 car going airborne after striking wheels and then winning? I know Grosjean is enjoying it way more as a driver and actually racing.

From a Global reach standpoint? Sure, F1 has it beat, but it's not because the product is better.

The notion that F1 is somehow more free is false. The new cars are a big step towards being regulated... and almost the NASCAR Formula of old "here is this tightly controlled box, but you can still build your own chassis. Different manufacturer engines, but they're mostly the same". At the end of the day, F1 tech is too held back by a decade + as well , and they would be nothing like they are today under a free rule set. At this point, they're Indy Car - ish, with a higher performance bar, but with worst racing.

F1 was nothing about what was on the road. In the past, they were aluminum and carbon fiber cigars with engines that resembled nothing like what was on the road. Can Am, GTP, Endurance prototypes have always been a better showcase for manufacturers in terms of technology. They need to decide are they an open wheel entertainment show (which they are) or are they trying to be relevant to the real world (they're not), and they seem to have confused what they are with the worst part of both.

[Jolle]

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111

Indycar is also relatively cheap. And designed to fit...errrrr... less athletic drivers... e.g. JPM and Tony Stewart fit in it.

But I think they're still high end race cars. You could argue the product is better even if it's less "high-tech".

For me, they are both open wheel racers but that’s where the comparison stops. It’s a spec series with a 10 year old base chassis and no development race like in F1. Yes racing is (part) entertainment but also the technical development (especially, well, that’s why we’re here right) is for me one of the special things of F1. It’s about building the best car and run the best team within a formula, not buying a car and put some paint on it (in extreme).

[Hoffman900]

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111

Indycar is also relatively cheap. And designed to fit...errrrr... less athletic drivers... e.g. JPM and Tony Stewart fit in it.

But I think they're still high end race cars. You could argue the product is better even if it's less "high-tech".

For me, they are both open wheel racers but that’s where the comparison stops. It’s a spec series with a 10 year old base chassis and no development race like in F1. Yes racing is (part) entertainment but also the technical development (especially, well, that’s why we’re here right) is for me one of the special things of F1. It’s about building the best car and run the best team within a formula, not buying a car and put some paint on it (in extreme).

Indy Car is still that way, just the development is different. NASCAR too, it's just not as obvious.

That's why the same teams / drivers dominate those series like F1. On paper it's closer, but in reality, it's not any more than F1, because tenths and hundredths of seconds are hard to find.

It's easier to see glue'ed on aero trinkets in F1 than it is to see something like shock valving.

[Jolle]

Indy Cars are around 3000mm +/- 50.8mm or so based on configuration. Size wise, they look much better than Formula 1 cars.

It's not even a safety argument because Indy Cars allow drivers to walk away and survive crashes that are magnitudes larger than anything seen in F1. Max's and Kubica's type crashes in terms of g load happens a few times per season, and sometimes well beyond.

The wheel base absolutely has an impact on tracks like Monaco. The Formula 2 and 3 cars get around Macau just fine. Beyond Monaco, they're just too big for most of the circuits, regardless. Without DRS (gimmick), the racing would be worst than it was 20 years ago.

The new 18" wheels are going to make the new generation of F1 cars more proportional looking, but only compared to themselves. In person, they'll look like land yachts.

Tech (and F1) moved on in the past 10 years since the DW12 was introduced, comparing modern F1 with indycar is like comparing the W12 with the F111

At the end of the day, racing is entertainment. People watching brings sponsors which brings money. Without eyes and without sponsors, it's just amateur racing for the well to do.

Indy Car has done a better job of making an entertaining, on track product. Nashville sucked this past weekend, but show me a clip of a modern F1 car going airborne after striking wheels and then winning? I know Grosjean is enjoying it way more as a driver and actually racing.

From a Global reach standpoint? Sure, F1 has it beat, but it's not because the product is better.

The notion that F1 is somehow more free is false. The new cars are a big step towards being regulated... and almost the NASCAR Formula of old "here is this tightly controlled box, but you can still build your own chassis. Different manufacturer engines, but they're mostly the same". At the end of the day, F1 tech is too held back by a decade + as well , and they would be nothing like they are today under a free rule set. At this point, they're Indy Car - ish, with a higher performance bar, but with worst racing.

F1 was nothing about what was on the road. In the past, they were aluminum and carbon fiber cigars with engines that resembled nothing like what was on the road. Can Am, GTP, Endurance prototypes have always been a better showcase for manufacturers in terms of technology. They need to decide are they an open wheel entertainment show (which they are) or are they trying to be relevant to the real world (they're not), and they seem to have confused what they are with the worst part of both.

We haven’t seen next years car yet. And there is a fine line between entertainment and professional sport. There are a few racing series that are investing a lot in being entertained, to try to fix a beter position on the marketing ladder (like FE is trying to do).

I tried to watch a couple of Indy car races and I was amazed by the amount of commercials, names, etc and that took a lot of pleasure away from watching for me, like I was watching a kids show on Nickelodeon, I was wondering when the backmarkers got slimed.

[Hoffman900]

DRS is about as gimmicky as it gets.

F1's illusion is that it is somehow superior to other forms of racing, and has an air of pompousness. Some buy into it, others think they're just a bunch of dorks. See the endless discussions about track limits... for as "sophisticated" as F1 wants you to think it is, they can't even figure that out.

F1 is controlled as much as anything else. Whether that is rules changes that reward certain concepts and hurt others, Pirelli mandating the tire compounds and pressure (which rewards certain teams), etc.

The Indy broadcast leaves something to be desired and in your face commercialization is very "American" (speaking as someone from the States myself).

[piast9]

The cars wouldn’t be lighter by the way. They have an extra long gearbox to stretch the car. Good chance there is only a few kg in that 30 cm space.

I am not so sure. It is 73 cm of structure (comparing max allowed 2022 F1 and MP4/4) between the wheels. I am not an expert in that topic but if you make something shorter it then it is made of less amount of material. Additionally the structure may be thinner and still be equally rigid from end to end which would add ligthness even more.

[Just_a_fan]

The only way to go back to cars like the MP4/4 is to use the same rules as the MP4/4 was built to. That's a whole new drive train, for a start. And quite how an MP4/4 would look with current cockpit dimensions and the halo is an interesting thought.

[Jolle]

The cars wouldn’t be lighter by the way. They have an extra long gearbox to stretch the car. Good chance there is only a few kg in that 30 cm space.

I am not so sure. It is 73 cm of structure (comparing max allowed 2022 F1 and MP4/4) between the wheels. I am not an expert in that topic but if you make something shorter it then it is made of less amount of material. Additionally the structure may be thinner and still be equally rigid from end to end which would add ligthness even more.

at least 30cm is in front of the driver (due to regulations the drivers feet must stay at least 30 cm behind the front axle, while in 1988 it was just not past the axle. And if you compare gearboxes from 1988 and now, they are at least 40 cm longer, to elongate the car. That's "just" two carbon square boxes (and some light weight bodywork). So, not that much.

The longer F1 cars have little to do with trying to get all their tech in, but more a discovery by Newey in his McLaren days that a longer car performed better (I think it was 1989), midseason the big teams started to make spacers for between engine en gearbox to gain more floorspace. The lengt of the fuel tank+ICE is actually shorter then in 1988 or 2013.
As for size, a MP4/4 is more like a modern FIA F3 car then the current F1 or F2 cars, just as the F1 cars from the 60's were more in line with the F3 cars from the 80's, etc etc. It progress.

[Mattchu]

Length and width should be reduced, the amount of flat floor area on modern cars is to much {IMO}, the engines for what they produce are relatively small, these giant monsters do round a track fast though...

[jjn9128]

The only way to go back to cars like the MP4/4 is to use the same rules as the MP4/4 was built to. That's a whole new drive train, for a start. And quite how an MP4/4 would look with current cockpit dimensions and the halo is an interesting thought.

AND get rid of 30+ years of aero knowledge and CFD. A car built now to the 1988 rule book would not look like an MP4/4. The only way to make a car look like an MP4/4 is to regulate - like the 2022 rules are regulated to look a certain way.

[Jolle]

The only way to go back to cars like the MP4/4 is to use the same rules as the MP4/4 was built to. That's a whole new drive train, for a start. And quite how an MP4/4 would look with current cockpit dimensions and the halo is an interesting thought.

Also, the MP4/4 (and other cars from that time) were designed by a handful of people with limited use of windtunnel, no CPF, etc. If a current design team with modern tools would let loose on a car like that, it would be nothing like the MP4/4. When Hamilton drove it around Silverstone somewhere early last decade, the first thing out of the car was: so little downforce. It was also lighter, but also a lot less powerful. around 700kg with driver, so around 820kg starting weight and 670 hp. Like a modern F3 car with the power of a F2 car.

[Jolle]

By the way, my dad, big Jim Clark fan, called those 80’s and 90’s cars “heavy big monstrosities, nothing to do with real racing”

[Stu]

Totally agree its so ugly seeing these monsters barely able to take the last corner in Monaco nowadays.
Shorter also less area for all the barge boards makes cleaner cars its a single seater for a reason

They do perfectly well at Monaco. But Monaco is an outlier and certainly one should not design the whole F1 rules just for that race.

It's worth remembering that it's not the wheelbase / car length that causes potential issues - it's the amount of angle the front wheels can be steered. F1 cars have poor turning circles because they have a small steering lock range - that's why they fit one off wishbones / racks to the cars for Monaco. That's not a new thing for the current cars - they've been doing it for many, many years.

The OP made some comment about current cars being a joke in low and medium speed corners - strange that they still manage to be quicker than just about any car in the history of F1 - and that's not all because of the speed on the straights.

I think what we have is a general dislike of the current cars - and that's fine, we all like different things (*) - disguised as an issue with cornering ability. There is not inherent issue in the current cars - they corner fine.


(* - for me, the cars that defined what an F1 car looked like were the MP4/5 - MP4/8 cars and the FW14B, although I well remember earlier cars, these stick in my memory most. Compact and simple. Would I like to see those again? Yes. Is it likely? No, not really. Things move on.)

How about this for a measure….
Eau Rouge should not be flat…..

[Just_a_fan]

The only way to go back to cars like the MP4/4 is to use the same rules as the MP4/4 was built to. That's a whole new drive train, for a start. And quite how an MP4/4 would look with current cockpit dimensions and the halo is an interesting thought.

AND get rid of 30+ years of aero knowledge and CFD. A car built now to the 1988 rule book would not look like an MP4/4. The only way to make a car look like an MP4/4 is to regulate - like the 2022 rules are regulated to look a certain way.

Indeed so. That's the problem with those that say we should go back to the old days. The old days with current knowledge would be very different.