Formula E

[RedNEO]

Anycase as DChemTech said, emotions are rarely changed by facts, haters gonna hate anycase. Exposing them to reality is fun tough

You and him both should apply that logic to your own thinking.. nobody is hating on batteries just applying what we see happening.. if that’s not “factual” enough then I don’t know what to tell you.. could always pretend it’s not happening if that suits you better.

[DChemTech]

But there isn't and won't be.

You must be reading the writing on an inner wall of a mental institution, because that's not happening.
At best bio-fuels (syn fuels are phantasmagoria) will be a smaller nieche where weight is cardinal, even then they'll still be electric, because wasting like 2/3 of the hard produced fuel is crazy.

Don't get dragged into this discussion too much... we've had this discussion in one of his own topics at length, where the author unfortunately did not show a very deep understanding of the respective challenges, technical aspects and life-cycle aspects of both electric and bio/synfuels (and all attempts at correction were either strawmanned or thrown out of the window). Some people just seem to have a very strong emotional prejudice against electric, be it due to the reduced noise levels or because the lack of a healthy petrol smell... anyway, emotions are rarely changed by facts.

And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.

funny how we recall completely different outcomes, but not surprising.

But things aren't turning out too badly for me, thanks. Still enjoying being an active (bio)chemical researcher quite a bit (you know, in that industry that I apparently do not see in the slightest where it's going )

So yeah, i have better things to spend my time on than taking your bait. Enjoy life!

[RedNEO]

Don't get dragged into this discussion too much... we've had this discussion in one of his own topics at length, where the author unfortunately did not show a very deep understanding of the respective challenges, technical aspects and life-cycle aspects of both electric and bio/synfuels (and all attempts at correction were either strawmanned or thrown out of the window). Some people just seem to have a very strong emotional prejudice against electric, be it due to the reduced noise levels or because the lack of a healthy petrol smell... anyway, emotions are rarely changed by facts.

And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.

funny how we recall completely different outcomes, but not surprising.

But things aren't turning out too badly for me, thanks. Still enjoying being an active (bio)chemical researcher quite a bit (you know, in that industry that I apparently do not see in the slightest where it's going )

So yeah, i have better things to spend my time on than taking your bait. Enjoy life!

I made a Poll so nobody would have to sift through nonsense to get the true feelings.. 51% for and only 24% against… that’s a pretty decisive margin.. check it out viewtopic.php?p=993752&f=4#p993752

[Andres125sx]

Anycase as DChemTech said, emotions are rarely changed by facts, haters gonna hate anycase. Exposing them to reality is fun tough

You and him both should apply that logic to your own thinking.. nobody is hating on batteries just applying what we see happening.. if that’s not “factual” enough then I don’t know what to tell you.. could always pretend it’s not happening if that suits you better.

The statement was not about batteries, but about FE wich is a completely different matter. As you can see I also see batteries as a crucial problem for EVs, actually they´re the reason I do not own an EVs yet and will not in a foreasable future. But as said that´s a different matter, what I replied was about FE not about batteries

[Andres125sx]

Don't miss the wood for the trees mate...

It's a comment on your general posture in this thread and others. You never miss an opportunity to take or give the bait.

Probably you´re right

But I can´t stop myself when I only read BS against EVs or FE. Some people expose reasonable arguments and that´s fine, we all have our own opinion, but most critics I read are based on nothing, or even worse, based on ignorance or biased arguments from biased reports.

Problem here is I fly RC planes for almost 30 years, and I´ve lived this exact same situation with many people bashing electrics with no reason. Today 90% of RC planes are electric for a reason, they´re several orders of magnitude better in all aspects.

With real cars it will take longer, but the process will be the same, sooner or later most cars will be electric for a reason, they´re better. More torque, instant response, more reliable, more durable, vibration free, emissions free at the point of use... the eco-friendly part is the less relevant to me sincerely, both from an engineering point of view and from the user point of view, they´re several steps ahead and that´s the main thing to me


But I get what you mean and will try to stop myself better

[DChemTech]

And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.

funny how we recall completely different outcomes, but not surprising.

But things aren't turning out too badly for me, thanks. Still enjoying being an active (bio)chemical researcher quite a bit (you know, in that industry that I apparently do not see in the slightest where it's going )

So yeah, i have better things to spend my time on than taking your bait. Enjoy life!

I made a Poll so nobody would have to sift through nonsense to get the true feelings.. 51% for and only 24% against… that’s a pretty decisive margin.. check it out viewtopic.php?p=993752&f=4#p993752

Ah yes, all hail the poll.
The poll that overrides all the arguments made in the discussion. The poll in which you pose a question that perfectly captures the factual developments in the car industry as a whole, and not the subjective opinions of a couple of forum members on the development of a racing series that is less and less a reflection of where the commodity car industry is going.

[nzjrs]

Problem here is I fly RC planes for almost 30 years, and I´ve lived this exact same situation with many people bashing electrics with no reason. Today 90% of RC planes are electric for a reason, they´re several orders of magnitude better in all aspects.

This is off topic - but related to your point.

I started building and flying multi-rotors when they were new, when you had to write the control software yourself. They indeed only fly because of the power-to-weight aspects of electric flight, and the controlability of BLDC motors. But then people come along and think its somehow a genius idea to scale this exact airframe to human or transport flight - It sometimes feels like we have people without the most basic knowledge of aerodynamics and flight arguing 'why don't big helicopters have 8 very tiny rotors spinning at 123000 rpm like my drone!!!??'

That is, intuitions of efficiency and path to market people sometimes have, that they think are genius and novel, are often frankly impossible or ridiculous at the scale it is necessary to actually bring the change required. There is a lot of crossover with discussions about electrification, energy and c02 considerations.

[RedNEO]

funny how we recall completely different outcomes, but not surprising.

But things aren't turning out too badly for me, thanks. Still enjoying being an active (bio)chemical researcher quite a bit (you know, in that industry that I apparently do not see in the slightest where it's going )

So yeah, i have better things to spend my time on than taking your bait. Enjoy life!

I made a Poll so nobody would have to sift through nonsense to get the true feelings.. 51% for and only 24% against… that’s a pretty decisive margin.. check it out viewtopic.php?p=993752&f=4#p993752

Ah yes, all hail the poll.
The poll that overrides all the arguments made in the discussion. The poll in which you pose a question that perfectly captures the factual developments in the car industry as a whole, and not the subjective opinions of a couple of forum members on the development of a racing series that is less and less a reflection of where the commodity car industry is going.

I guess I should be flattered that you responded after saying you had better things to do hours earlier

The poll is pretty clear and hard to argue against I don’t see how I could make it any clearer.

[nzjrs]

The poll is pretty clear and hard to argue against I don’t see how I could make it any clearer.

The interesting part of that thread is not the poll, but the 10 or so pages from page 3 onwards where everyone tried to explain to you how carbon and energy accounting worked.

DC was exceptionally patient and in the end you were still remarkibly wrong and got increasingly frustrated so you just PZ'd (left) the thread.

So if you link back to the poll, at least link to the beginning of the useful discussion.

[RedNEO]

The poll is pretty clear and hard to argue against I don’t see how I could make it any clearer.

The interesting part of that thread is not the poll, but the 10 or so pages from page 3 onwards where everyone tried to explain to you how carbon and energy accounting worked.

DC was exceptionally patient and in the end you were still remarkibly wrong and got increasingly frustrated so you just PZ'd (left) the thread.

So if you link back to the poll, at least link to the beginning of the useful discussion.

That’s not what happened.. maybe in your mind you felt “everyone” was on your side but the poll numbers don’t lie

[nzjrs]

That’s not what happened.. maybe in your mind you felt “everyone” was on your side but the poll numbers don’t lie

If we were friends in real life I'd be interested in having some of your free lunches

[RedNEO]

That’s not what happened.. maybe in your mind you felt “everyone” was on your side but the poll numbers don’t lie

If we were friends in real life I'd be interested in having some of your free lunches

Bless your cotton socks

[hollus]

Is it really necessary to repeat that particular rodeo? Here?
Please agree to disagree and move on everyone.

[Andres125sx]

Problem here is I fly RC planes for almost 30 years, and I´ve lived this exact same situation with many people bashing electrics with no reason. Today 90% of RC planes are electric for a reason, they´re several orders of magnitude better in all aspects.

This is off topic - but related to your point.

I started building and flying multi-rotors when they were new, when you had to write the control software yourself. They indeed only fly because of the power-to-weight aspects of electric flight, and the controlability of BLDC motors. But then people come along and think its somehow a genius idea to scale this exact airframe to human or transport flight - It sometimes feels like we have people without the most basic knowledge of aerodynamics and flight arguing 'why don't big helicopters have 8 very tiny rotors spinning at 123000 rpm like my drone!!!??'

That is, intuitions of efficiency and path to market people sometimes have, that they think are genius and novel, are often frankly impossible or ridiculous at the scale it is necessary to actually bring the change required. There is a lot of crossover with discussions about electrification, energy and c02 considerations.

Sorry to continue the OT, but I also fly multirotors since they exist, but programming was never my thing. My first board was the X-3D I installed on a home made frame built with wood and fiberglass board cut for reinforcements with brushed motors with plastic gearbox (GWS) It´s still around here, I can´t throw it to the trash

Since then I´ve flown all sort of multirotors, from a big octocopter with a DSLR camera (also home made frame, this time with carbon fiber tubes and plates), also racing drones, smaller ones...

I can´t agree with you more, when I see this sort of things I can only pray for the bastard onboard so he do not suffer a blade, motor, motor support or arm failure





But there are more serious and safer projects too...

[mzso]

And how did that work out for you? I’ll remind you.. it worked out that the majority agreed that the direction we and F1 as a byproduct are going isn’t electric but sustainable fuels.

Again, sustainable fuels and electric are not mutually exclusive.
And no-one is going towards sustainable fuels besides F1 so far. Road cars are definitely not headed in that direction.
Besides F1 going for sustainable fuels won't reduce the electric part, which will probably have more significance in the future formula.