Track wetness indicators

[PlatinumZealot]

Background:

I don't beleive races should be red-flagged in wet conditions if the water level is apparently below the typical wet ride height of the cars ( difference in radius of wet and dry tyres). Racing is dangerous. The cars CAN drive in these conditions. Drivers must adjust their speeds accordingly in wet conditions so that the race goes on. This is what the fans want to see.

Invention:

I propose to place at notorious corners in wet conditions, a large indicator, showing the wetness rated 0 to 100, to be used to warn drivers so that they may adjust their corner speeds accordingly.

How will this work?

There will be capacitive sensors embedded throughout the corner. The capacitance changes with the water film thickness above the asphalt. The level of water and thus capacitance that causes aquaplaning at race speeds, will be assigned 100% wet. The capacitance of the dry track (air) will be set at 0%.

The panels will be set in view going into the corner and upon viewing the panels the drivers will use their best judgement to adjust their speeds going into the corner.

[Jolle]

Background:

I don't beleive races should be red-flagged in wet conditions if the water level is apparently below the typical wet ride height of the cars ( difference in radius of wet and dry tyres). Racing is dangerous. The cars CAN drive in these conditions. Drivers must adjust their speeds accordingly in wet conditions so that the race goes on. This is what the fans want to see.

Invention:

I propose to place at notorious corners in wet conditions, a large indicator, showing the wetness rated 0 to 100, to be used to warn drivers so that they may adjust their corner speeds accordingly.

How will this work?

There will be capacitive sensors embedded throughout the corner. The capacitance changes with the water film thickness above the asphalt. The level of water and thus capacitance that causes aquaplaning at race speeds, will be assigned 100% wet. The capacitance of the dry track (air) will be set at 0%.

The panels will be set in view going into the corner and upon viewing the panels the drivers will use their best judgement to adjust their speeds going into the corner.

That will need a lot of sensors because a corner can be to dangerous because of a small puddle or a stream.

[adrianjordan]

Or, and this is a bit of a crazy madcap idea, have wet tyres that can actually cope with rain!!!!

Remember in the Bridgestone era the inter could cope with most rain and the full wet was more of a monsoon tyre!!

[Manoah2u]

Or, and this is a bit of a crazy madcap idea, have wet tyres that can actually cope with rain!!!!

Remember in the Bridgestone era the inter could cope with most rain and the full wet was more of a monsoon tyre!!

this is the actual real issue here.

if pirelli made these tires for consumers, they would have been bankrupt from lawsuits years ago.
f1 is castrated by the tires.

that said though, the Norris incident did happen also because of a 'natural' mistake by Lando, so i wouldn't put 100% blame there but nevertheless, yet another example where policy is failing.

[PlatinumZealot]

Any contributions to this new system is welcomed.

We have all heard the tyre complaints before. This thread is not for that.

What are the merits of this system and has anything ever been invented before?

[Stu]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

[Big Tea]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

Don't remember which track, but did they not cut a series of groves (like a fan shape) on one corner so the water ran down the grade and off rather than lay on the surface. Was it here or possibly France?

[NL_Fer]

This weekend the waterfilm itself was not the problem, but on some spots on the track puddles of standing water or streams crossing left-right which unsettles the car.

[Stu]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

Don't remember which track, but did they not cut a series of groves (like a fan shape) on one corner so the water ran down the grade and off rather than lay on the surface. Was it here or possibly France?

I can recall grooves being cut into a track (across the track), Indianapolis also has grooves cut into the surface (but these are longitudinal AFAICR) which were part of the explanation given for the Michelin tyre failures in 2004(?? - I think that was the year).

[Big Tea]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

Don't remember which track, but did they not cut a series of groves (like a fan shape) on one corner so the water ran down the grade and off rather than lay on the surface. Was it here or possibly France?

I can recall grooves being cut into a track (across the track), Indianapolis also has grooves cut into the surface (but these are longitudinal AFAICR) which were part of the explanation given for the Michelin tyre failures in 2004(?? - I think that was the year).

That's probably it.

[PlatinumZealot]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

Permeable pavement?

The lack of this technology in F1 is something I wonder about. Probably grip levels too load or load levels or something. Clogging with dirt maybe...

[Jolle]

One solution would be for the track surface to be porous, there could only ever be a very thin film of water. Still enough to make it a bit trick for the drivers, but not enough for aqua-planing.

Permeable pavement?

The lack of this technology in F1 is something I wonder about. Probably grip levels too load or load levels or something. Clogging with dirt maybe...

We have this asphalt in the Netherlands on our motorways a lot, well… had.. the biggest problem is not just pollution (what isn’t a big problem on a well used motorway) but frost… the expanding ice cracks it all to pieces.

[Hoffman900]

Permeable pavement works well for frost as it drains into the engineered sub base. Not so with traditional asphalt.

The problem with porous pavement is all in loads. In parking lots, you can’t use it where there is truck traffic as the weight of them will compact it enough to not be porous anymore.

This would create an even greater disparity between dry / wet surface on a race track, where the standard racing line would essentially be non porous.

Basically, porous paving is pretty loose stuff, breaks apart easily in areas with load (braking zones at traffic lights, sharper corners, parking lots with truck traffic, etc).

Porous pacing does need to be vacuumed due to grit and is part of the O&M of it.

[Hoffman900]

As for the track wetness indicator. Even if you had the sensors and a rating, drivers are going to go as fast as they can through the corner regardless of rating. I don’t think there would be any driver who would take it seriously.

Like, no one is going to be like “I can get through the corner at. 62 rating and not a 64”, and it would totally go out the window when a driver goes through at the same speed at say a “62” but small changes mean they crash one lap where they didn’t before.

Then there is where does the rating start? Braking zone may be fine, but there might be a stream at the apex, or apex might be fine but track out isn’t, etc.

Also, it’s just another thing for them to have to look at.

[adrianjordan]

Any contributions to this new system is welcomed.

We have all heard the tyre complaints before. This thread is not for that.

What are the merits of this system and has anything ever been invented before?

I just don't understand how this would work from a sensor perspective. I don't think a sensor exists that could do this accurately enough for F1.

So first step, invent something that doesn't exist.

Or, solve the problem the basic way, rather than looking for complicated technologies that can fail and give false results.

"The most reliable part of any system is no part" ie if you don't have a part that isn't needed, then that part cannot fail.