Wet weather racing (water limits)

[TerryL]

So we know how many liters the wet and inter tyres displace per second. Engineers need to do a further calculation, to work out the depth of water on the track that can be cleared at various speeds to allow the tyre to contact the track surface. e.g at 250kph, say 5mm. Then knowing the track speeds, we can do a map of the track showing the depth of water that can be cleared by a - wet and b - inter. After applying some fiddle factors, we know what depth of water at normal speed around the track is OK to race. The present method of 'let's send them out to try it" is no good as evidenced by Norris' crash today

[PhillipM]

And how do you then accurately measure the depth of water every half meter or so on the track?

[TerryL]

I'm not thinking of a steward with a depth stick! I've seen how fast technology is moving in agriculture, what can be measured from above.
Initially we would look at the known stationary water problem areas. Some sort of sensor above in a camera. Water depth could be relayed to a map in Race Control and areas too deep for tyres clearing at normal speed shaded red.
Response could be: One red area, flag marshall with a new 'water on track' flag similar to oil flag.
2 More red areas, safety car "water too deep' to slow cars.
3. If necessary,Red flag.
Don't discount technology. There will have to be a better way than trashing the first $10 million race car to go out, in the hands of a competent driver, and risking his life and limb

[Dr. Acula]

I'm not thinking of a steward with a depth stick! I've seen how fast technology is moving in agriculture, what can be measured from above.
Initially we would look at the known stationary water problem areas. Some sort of sensor above in a camera. Water depth could be relayed to a map in Race Control and areas too deep for tyres clearing at normal speed shaded red.
Response could be: One red area, flag marshall with a new 'water on track' flag similar to oil flag.
2 More red areas, safety car "water too deep' to slow cars.
3. If necessary,Red flag.
Don't discount technology. There will have to be a better way than trashing the first $10 million race car to go out, in the hands of a competent driver, and risking his life and limb

Unfortunately it's not that simple, as always. Deep standing water can actually have two effects on the car. One is simply aquaplaning of the tyres the other is that the undertray bascially starts to swim on the water which disturbs the aero significantly. The second one depends strongly on how the car is setup an can vary significantly from car to car. With other words it depends heavily on the car if it can cope with a certain amount of water or not.

Also if you look at yesterdays "race" the fear was not so much the amount of water on the track to make the whole thing undrivable. The fear was that the driver would have difficulty to see anything dangerous happening in front of them.

[Zynerji]

I'm not thinking of a steward with a depth stick! I've seen how fast technology is moving in agriculture, what can be measured from above.
Initially we would look at the known stationary water problem areas. Some sort of sensor above in a camera. Water depth could be relayed to a map in Race Control and areas too deep for tyres clearing at normal speed shaded red.
Response could be: One red area, flag marshall with a new 'water on track' flag similar to oil flag.
2 More red areas, safety car "water too deep' to slow cars.
3. If necessary,Red flag.
Don't discount technology. There will have to be a better way than trashing the first $10 million race car to go out, in the hands of a competent driver, and risking his life and limb

Unfortunately it's not that simple, as always. Deep standing water can actually have two effects on the car. One is simply aquaplaning of the tyres the other is that the undertray bascially starts to swim on the water which disturbs the aero significantly. The second one depends strongly on how the car is setup an can vary significantly from car to car. With other words it depends heavily on the car if it can cope with a certain amount of water or not.

Also if you look at yesterdays "race" the fear was not so much the amount of water on the track to make the whole thing undrivable. The fear was that the driver would have difficulty to see anything dangerous happening in front of them.

Sounds like the spray is caused by the same phenomena that also cause loss of downforce while following another car.

Can the aero rules be adapted to stop such extreme up-wash at the trailing edge of the car?

[Jolle]

I'm not thinking of a steward with a depth stick! I've seen how fast technology is moving in agriculture, what can be measured from above.
Initially we would look at the known stationary water problem areas. Some sort of sensor above in a camera. Water depth could be relayed to a map in Race Control and areas too deep for tyres clearing at normal speed shaded red.
Response could be: One red area, flag marshall with a new 'water on track' flag similar to oil flag.
2 More red areas, safety car "water too deep' to slow cars.
3. If necessary,Red flag.
Don't discount technology. There will have to be a better way than trashing the first $10 million race car to go out, in the hands of a competent driver, and risking his life and limb

Unfortunately it's not that simple, as always. Deep standing water can actually have two effects on the car. One is simply aquaplaning of the tyres the other is that the undertray bascially starts to swim on the water which disturbs the aero significantly. The second one depends strongly on how the car is setup an can vary significantly from car to car. With other words it depends heavily on the car if it can cope with a certain amount of water or not.

Also if you look at yesterdays "race" the fear was not so much the amount of water on the track to make the whole thing undrivable. The fear was that the driver would have difficulty to see anything dangerous happening in front of them.

Sounds like the spray is caused by the same phenomena that also cause loss of downforce while following another car.

Can the aero rules be adapted to stop such extreme up-wash at the trailing edge of the car?

My guess is that there are two main reasons why there is so much spray. One is that it’s open wheel racing, the tires fling up 100 litre of water up in the air per second without bodywork containing it. This is made worse by the turbulence and the high speed. Removing just a bit of turbulence doesn’t do the trick.

[Zynerji]

Unfortunately it's not that simple, as always. Deep standing water can actually have two effects on the car. One is simply aquaplaning of the tyres the other is that the undertray bascially starts to swim on the water which disturbs the aero significantly. The second one depends strongly on how the car is setup an can vary significantly from car to car. With other words it depends heavily on the car if it can cope with a certain amount of water or not.

Also if you look at yesterdays "race" the fear was not so much the amount of water on the track to make the whole thing undrivable. The fear was that the driver would have difficulty to see anything dangerous happening in front of them.

Sounds like the spray is caused by the same phenomena that also cause loss of downforce while following another car.

Can the aero rules be adapted to stop such extreme up-wash at the trailing edge of the car?

My guess is that there are two main reasons why there is so much spray. One is that it’s open wheel racing, the tires fling up 100 litre of water up in the air per second without bodywork containing it. This is made worse by the turbulence and the high speed. Removing just a bit of turbulence doesn’t do the trick.

So, bolt-on fenders when using wet tyres??

[Jolle]

Sounds like the spray is caused by the same phenomena that also cause loss of downforce while following another car.

Can the aero rules be adapted to stop such extreme up-wash at the trailing edge of the car?

My guess is that there are two main reasons why there is so much spray. One is that it’s open wheel racing, the tires fling up 100 litre of water up in the air per second without bodywork containing it. This is made worse by the turbulence and the high speed. Removing just a bit of turbulence doesn’t do the trick.

So, bolt-on fenders when using wet tyres??

Fenders, removal of most aero, skinny tires and somehow a duct to remove the air pressure from the top of the wheels. In other words, nothing like a F1 (style) car. Switch to Lotus 7’s instead.