2021 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort Sept 3 - 5

[Manoah2u]

Really cool!

i very much doubt that this is legal at all.........
and you can call me a vinigar 'pisser' all people want, i think that stuff like this is really wrong and if this is actually real and done by the zandvoort council than that is worse. i can see a dozen reasons how this is actually a huge legal problem, but i'll leave it at that.

i can see the fun on private property and jokes though. but i'll leave it at that.

[PlatinumZealot]

Funny how this rumour rears its head again at a time when RedBull inevitably faces an engine penalty.

Why do you think this is only a rumor?

No. Whoever brought it here must explain in technical terms why they believe it to be true.

My cat drags in better quarry than that tripe of a rumour.

[PlatinumZealot]

Unless there is an algorithm compensating for that..

It doesn't quite work like that.
You know what, that rumour is so rubbish I won't even waste time going through the physics of how to achieve adiabatic cooling in the plenum.

Funny how this rumour rears its head again at a time when RedBull inevitably faces an engine penalty.

The FIA sensor is taking an average over time, the ECU sensor is near-real-time.

Doing flow simulation, I can believe that there can be warm/cool zones that can be designed into the plenum. After that, it is just careful placement of the 2 sensors to get the readings that are desired.

Yeah i do CFD as well.
Did you simulate the Mercedes plenum?
Did you achieve adiabatic cooling?
Look Porsche achieves it and you will see how you can do it. Remember all teams would have been trying this... But this is not the point.

Look where the temperature is measured in bold.

5.6.8
Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must
be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing
compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded by an FIA approved
and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during
every lap of the qualifying practice session and the race. The ambient
temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider. This
information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.

The FIA are not idiots so they stipulate the FIA approved location.
When the change in regulation happened for 2018 the FIA clearly saying that it will place the sensor as close as possible to accurately detect the temperatures going into the cylinders.

This attempted distraction is someone digging up old stuff and making trouble.

I'm gonna just not comment anymore on this.

[zibby43]

I guess time (and the FIA) will show us if you are right . . .

That part about the sensor being in an FIA-approved location seems pretty ironclad, no?

[Just_a_fan]

It doesn't quite work like that.
You know what, that rumour is so rubbish I won't even waste time going through the physics of how to achieve adiabatic cooling in the plenum.

Funny how this rumour rears its head again at a time when RedBull inevitably faces an engine penalty.

The FIA sensor is taking an average over time, the ECU sensor is near-real-time.

Doing flow simulation, I can believe that there can be warm/cool zones that can be designed into the plenum. After that, it is just careful placement of the 2 sensors to get the readings that are desired.

Yeah i do CFD as well.
Did you simulate the Mercedes plenum?
Did you achieve adiabatic cooling?
Look Porsche achieves it and you will see how you can do it. Remember all teams would have been trying this... But this is not the point.

Look where the temperature is measured in bold.

5.6.8
Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must
be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing
compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded by an FIA approved
and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during
every lap of the qualifying practice session and the race. The ambient
temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider. This
information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.

The FIA are not idiots so they stipulate the FIA approved location.
When the change in regulation happened for 2018 the FIA clearly saying that it will place the sensor as close as possible to accurately detect the temperatures going into the cylinders.

This attempted distraction is someone digging up old stuff and making trouble.

I'm gonna just not comment anymore on this.

If the allowed temperature is a lap average then you can absolutely run "burst cooling" at key points and just allow the temperature to be higher at other times. Presumably the rules allow an average because the air inlet temperature will vary over the lap anyway with off throttle and full throttle being different. So if a team can be clever in how they phase the temperature in the plenum, then it would be legal.

If the FIA specify the location of the temperature sensors then I don't see what Red Bull can complain about in that regard.

[PlatinumZealot]

If the allowed temperature is a lap average then you can absolutely run "burst cooling" at key points and just allow the temperature to be higher at other times. Presumably the rules allow an average because the air inlet temperature will vary over the lap anyway with off throttle and full throttle being different. So if a team can be clever in how they phase the temperature in the plenum, then it would be legal.

If the FIA specify the location of the temperature sensors then I don't see what Red Bull can complain about in that regard.

Also note this... Correct if i am wrong..

The highest intake air temperatures will be at higher boost lower speed. For example accerating hard out of a turn.

The coolest temperatures will be at low boost high speed example lift and coast.

If the intercooler is designed large enough the temperatures in these situations can be more similar. Fine.

Any intake temperature cheating would be done with accoustics and dead zones inside the plenum. Valve timing is fixed. Intake length is variable plus Turbine back-pressure and spark timing stuff is variable to influence the intake accoustics.

This means with playing with averages they are suggesting that during the low boost parts of the track the teams are running more inefficiently to artificially increase the intake plenum temperatures? This is unlikely as it would cause more fuel burn anyway, but it is not illegal. Nothing illegal about this according to the rules.

So it's back to the old "Mercedes tricked the FIA with the temperature sensor location!" propaganda which I addressed above.

[Zynerji]

I guess time (and the FIA) will show us if you are right . . .

That part about the sensor being in an FIA-approved location seems pretty ironclad, no?

I guess the teams have different designs, so don't they all just submit a design for approval of the location they choose afterwards?

And PZ. It's a fallacy to say "it uses more fuel". As a matter of fact, I would expect it to use the same, just more on corner exit, and less at the end of the straights.

I mean, you could lean fuel a cylinder and spark it with the intake valve still open to backfire into the manifold and warm the sensor as well, I'd imagine, if you wanted to get really into the weeds...

[langedweil]

So it's back to the old "Mercedes tricked the FIA with the temperature sensor location!" propaganda which I addressed above.

Slow down Beavis ...
A question was formally asked by RB and partly Fer, FIA will answer that question with or without action, everything else is just bollocks .. especially opinions this forum.

[PlatinumZealot]

So it's back to the old "Mercedes tricked the FIA with the temperature sensor location!" propaganda which I addressed above.

Slow down Beavis ...
A question was formally asked by RB and partly Fer, FIA will answer that question with or without action, everything else is just bollocks .. especially opinions this forum.

Who is Beavis?
Is this something derogatory in your mother tongue? I have been getting a flurry of verbal attacks of late. Bare faced name calling seems to be the new style now. Sigh.


Edit...

So i found that out that Beavis refers to the cartoon charatcer from the MTV show Beavis and Butthead. Beavis is used when responding to a stupid person.. (or a mentally challenged person).

Ok then.
And you expect me to reply to you?

[langedweil]

So it's back to the old "Mercedes tricked the FIA with the temperature sensor location!" propaganda which I addressed above.

Slow down Beavis ...
A question was formally asked by RB and partly Fer, FIA will answer that question with or without action, everything else is just bollocks .. especially opinions this forum.

Who is Beavis?
Is this something derogatory in your mother tongue? I have been getting a flurry of verbal attacks of late. Bare faced name calling seems to be the new style now. Sigh.


Edit...

So i found that out that Beavis refers to the cartoon charatcer from the MTV show Beavis and Butthead. Beavis is used when responding to a stupid person.. (or a mentally challenged person).

Ok then.
And you expect me to reply to you?

Really, is that what the tagline is nowadays ? Nothing seems sacred anymore ..
If you feel like that, rest assured that was not what was meant by that.

Slow down Beavis was basically Butthead calling Beavis down whenever he got overexited/uptight/angry/happy about .. well, anything really. And while the lads weren't always the brightest, sure as hell they were genius at times as well.
But it never was anything more than 'hold your breath', 'sit down and relax', 'chill the f*** out' ...

But apparently in today's world stuff like this needs to be redefined without context to something it never was.
Can't really help that; I'm too old, and besides.. Society, That's You!

So, no bashing or namecalling .. just don't read every word as a personal attack.

[Mr.S]

Ignoring the stupidity of RB vs Merc (Let FIA decide), what will be the likely tyre strategy. In a track where overtaking is difficult, 1 Stopper? Can the tyres run that long (70 Laps) & how hard wil this be on the Tyres. Pirelli says it is easier than Silverstone !

[TNTHead]

Ignoring the stupidity of RB vs Merc (Let FIA decide), what will be the likely tyre strategy. In a track where overtaking is difficult, 1 Stopper? Can the tyres run that long (70 Laps) & how hard wil this be on the Tyres. Pirelli says it is easier than Silverstone !

Many unknowns, friday training should shed light on that. What we know is that is a very short pitlane which makes the penalty for new tyres significantly smaller.

[basti313]

Ignoring the stupidity of RB vs Merc (Let FIA decide), what will be the likely tyre strategy. In a track where overtaking is difficult, 1 Stopper? Can the tyres run that long (70 Laps) & how hard wil this be on the Tyres. Pirelli says it is easier than Silverstone !

Many unknowns, friday training should shed light on that. What we know is that is a very short pitlane which makes the penalty for new tyres significantly smaller.

Is it? As usual the FIA would set the pit speed limit quite far into turn 1. At the moment I do not believe they release the pit limiter before turn 1 and then the time loss is substantial as they will loose a lot of time compared to turn 1 on the track and additinally down to turn 2.

[GOAT]

So i found that out that Beavis refers to the cartoon charatcer from the MTV show Beavis and Butthead. Beavis is used when responding to a stupid person.. (or a mentally challenged person).

Ok then.
And you expect me to reply to you?

Well at least you have the decency to reply, in contrast to ‘others’.

I strongly get the feeling that I am being discriminated on this forum, because I associate myself with being a black person.

As a minority you get ridiculed and excluded overhere- truly appalling.

#minoritylifesmatter

[WaikeCU]

Oh god, please don't bring race into this. Mods? a bit of help here please.

Some lads here need to get their act together and stop using names to call out others, whether they mean it or not.