2021 Dutch Grand Prix - Zandvoort Sept 3 - 5

[El Scorchio]

Bottas is way too professional to not help Lewis win the WDC if he is also in a position to collect podiums and help the team win the WCC.

Well.... he wasn't on Sunday! (at least on the face of it) Despite being told not to go for fastest lap, and then being told to abort halfway through, he still did it and forced the team to pit Hamilton again and make him do it.

If it was manufactured drama/a plan, I really can't think to what end or benefit it was meant to be or indeed how they would have communicated it to the drivers. Unless they thought for some bizarre reason Red Bull would be stupid enough to assume Hamilton was pitting anyway before he did and pre-emptively bring Verstappen in for some weird reason, then to leave Hamilton out. I can't imagine a team run by a group of 10 year olds falling for that.

I'm not so sure... they pitted him (and he wasn't sure why till after he asked), they put him on softs so his instinct may have been to just go for fastest lap. He did let up on sector 3 once he was told to abort. His sector 3 on that lap was about .7 seconds slower that his previous lap's sector 3. Now, if he was told beforehand not to attempt fastest lap, then I agree, he wasn't being too professional.

But this goes to what I was saying. That one point wasn't hurting Mercedes' WCC at all, nor was it going to affect Hamiltons podium results for that race. But as a driver, it might affect YOUR 3rd place in the standings moving forward. I don't blame Bottas for going for the fastest lap point.

I believe he was told as soon as he pitted to not go for fastest lap, if I recall correctly. Then was told again part way through. But as you say, I don't blame him for going for it either. It could always have been a little 'test' from the team as well of course, to see how he's going to act here on in.

[El Scorchio]

He didn't take the point away. Hamilton got the fastest lap point.

He did momentarily after being asked not to. (Reading back I didn't make that clear enough probably) Which meant they had no choice but to then pit Hamilton to get it back. It doesn't appear it was actually necessary to pit either of them, unless they thought Verstappen was capable of banging one in on his old tyres.

Red Bull could have pitted Perez and had him do fastest lap. He'd have lost points but they have done it before - their primary goal being to deny Hamilton the point.

Very true- well spotted. So perhaps it was necessary after all to prevent RBR doing that again. And to pit Hamilton you DO need to pit Bottas to get him out of the way first.

[codetower]

Well.... he wasn't on Sunday! (at least on the face of it) Despite being told not to go for fastest lap, and then being told to abort halfway through, he still did it and forced the team to pit Hamilton again and make him do it.

If it was manufactured drama/a plan, I really can't think to what end or benefit it was meant to be or indeed how they would have communicated it to the drivers. Unless they thought for some bizarre reason Red Bull would be stupid enough to assume Hamilton was pitting anyway before he did and pre-emptively bring Verstappen in for some weird reason, then to leave Hamilton out. I can't imagine a team run by a group of 10 year olds falling for that.

I'm not so sure... they pitted him (and he wasn't sure why till after he asked), they put him on softs so his instinct may have been to just go for fastest lap. He did let up on sector 3 once he was told to abort. His sector 3 on that lap was about .7 seconds slower that his previous lap's sector 3. Now, if he was told beforehand not to attempt fastest lap, then I agree, he wasn't being too professional.

But this goes to what I was saying. That one point wasn't hurting Mercedes' WCC at all, nor was it going to affect Hamiltons podium results for that race. But as a driver, it might affect YOUR 3rd place in the standings moving forward. I don't blame Bottas for going for the fastest lap point.

I believe he was told as soon as he pitted to not go for fastest lap, if I recall correctly. Then was told again part way through. But as you say, I don't blame him for going for it either. It could always have been a little 'test' from the team as well of course, to see how he's going to act here on in.

Ahh, then that is different. Then yes, that was unprofessional. That might be the reason he is not a Mercedes driver anymore after this year. The team likely sensed that he no longer wanted to be a number 2, and was starting to show it, so they needed to move on.

Back onto the fastest lap topic; What I find curious is why Mercedes would ask one of their drivers to abort the fastest lap? What happens if Hamilton gets a gust of wind or a slight snap of under/oversteer and is unable to secure the fastest lap, or has one or two bad mini-sectors and as was mentioned, Perez or Verstappen get it. Mercedes end up without the point. I personally would let both Hamilton AND Bottas attempt fastest lap. Better odds of getting that extra point for the team.

[ispano6]

When you state a fact, be preapred to back it up.

No problem buddy- you should know by now we are only here to help.

Current #1 with 344,5 points =

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/team.html

Right? Some people are saying Max is BARELY leading the championship despite having a dominant car though.
Should really be Current #1 with at least 30pts margin if Max was screwed over so much. Then Max+RB16B dominance would be more apparent.

[Wouter]

When you state a fact, be preapred to back it up.

No problem buddy- you should know by now we are only here to help.

Current #1 with 344,5 points =

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/team.html

Right? Some people are saying Max is BARELY leading the championship despite having a dominant car though.
Should really be Current #1 with at least 30pts margin if Max was screwed over so much.
Then Max+RB16B dominance would be more apparent.

Max doesn't think so.

In a Red Bull Racing preview, Verstappen answers the question of which team, at this stage of the season, he would give the advantage to. "I don’t think either us or Mercedes have a big advantage over the other", said the Dutchman.
"At Zandvoort you could see in qualifying and the race that both of our cars are super close and Lewis was applying pressure for the entire race which meant we couldn’t afford to make any mistakes on the track, in the pit lane or on the pit wall, and we didn’t."

"I think it’s the finer details where you can make a difference. When you enter a race weekend you have to work hard as a Team on the set-up and fine tuning the little details, that’s where the gains can be made."

Monza good for Mercedes

Looking ahead to the Italian Grand Prix, Verstappen does predict that his team will have a relative disadvantage to their competitor: "I expect Monza to suit Mercedes as it hasn’t been our best track for the last few years but this year we are more competitive so you never know.
If we continue what we have been doing, working well together as a Team, and nail every little detail then we can be competitive but Mercedes might have a top speed advantage on us."

[ispano6]

No problem buddy- you should know by now we are only here to help.

Current #1 with 344,5 points =

https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2021/team.html

Right? Some people are saying Max is BARELY leading the championship despite having a dominant car though.
Should really be Current #1 with at least 30pts margin if Max was screwed over so much.
Then Max+RB16B dominance would be more apparent.

Max doesn't think so.

In a Red Bull Racing preview, Verstappen answers the question of which team, at this stage of the season, he would give the advantage to. "I don’t think either us or Mercedes have a big advantage over the other", said the Dutchman.
"At Zandvoort you could see in qualifying and the race that both of our cars are super close and Lewis was applying pressure for the entire race which meant we couldn’t afford to make any mistakes on the track, in the pit lane or on the pit wall, and we didn’t."

"I think it’s the finer details where you can make a difference. When you enter a race weekend you have to work hard as a Team on the set-up and fine tuning the little details, that’s where the gains can be made."

Monza good for Mercedes

Looking ahead to the Italian Grand Prix, Verstappen does predict that his team will have a relative disadvantage to their competitor: "I expect Monza to suit Mercedes as it hasn’t been our best track for the last few years but this year we are more competitive so you never know.
If we continue what we have been doing, working well together as a Team, and nail every little detail then we can be competitive but Mercedes might have a top speed advantage on us."

Sorry, I would rephrase and say Max+RB16B+team have executed better than Mercedes. Dominance isn't the right word to describe the lead Max had and would have had were it not for his "misfortunes". It's just the word others have been saying to describe the RB16B, which of course it is clearly not a dominant car.

[Wouter]

Sorry, I would rephrase and say Max+RB16B+team have executed better than Mercedes. Dominance isn't the right word to describe the lead Max had and would have had were it not for his "misfortunes".
It's just the word others have been saying to describe the RB16B, which of course it is clearly not a dominant car.

I agree and Max too.

[NL_Fer]

Perez destroyed the floor on Norris left tires. He was not able to do a fast lap after that

[Starkblood80]

Was anyone else disappointed with this race? It seemed that overtaking was extremely limited and that the front runners spent more time lapping other cars than actually racing.

[Just_a_fan]

Max doesn't think so.

In a Red Bull Racing preview, Verstappen answers the question of which team, at this stage of the season, he would give the advantage to. "I don’t think either us or Mercedes have a big advantage over the other", said the Dutchman.
"At Zandvoort you could see in qualifying and the race that both of our cars are super close and Lewis was applying pressure for the entire race which meant we couldn’t afford to make any mistakes on the track, in the pit lane or on the pit wall, and we didn’t."

"I think it’s the finer details where you can make a difference. When you enter a race weekend you have to work hard as a Team on the set-up and fine tuning the little details, that’s where the gains can be made."

Monza good for Mercedes

Looking ahead to the Italian Grand Prix, Verstappen does predict that his team will have a relative disadvantage to their competitor: "I expect Monza to suit Mercedes as it hasn’t been our best track for the last few years but this year we are more competitive so you never know.
If we continue what we have been doing, working well together as a Team, and nail every little detail then we can be competitive but Mercedes might have a top speed advantage on us."

When Lewis and Toto were saying this in previous times when it was apparently close, they were derided by many hereabouts. You know, just for completeness.

[RZS10]

Horner himself put the pace advantage at 0.1-0.2 seconds per lap (Wolff said it was more towards 0.3s/lap) ... so over the race a theoretical total of roughly 7-14 seconds (or 21s if you go with Wolff's estimate), that's obviously not "dominant" (only compared to the field which was lapped in it's entirety) but enough to comfortably keep the Merc at bay and i believe it was quite evident in the race given that Max could easily respond whenever Lewis tried to get closer than 3s at various points in the race - one such example was after they both got past Bottas (way too easily, for different reasons) where Max just got away by 0.9s in one lap.

[PlatinumZealot]

Was anyone else disappointed with this race? It seemed that overtaking was extremely limited and that the front runners spent more time lapping other cars than actually racing.

I started in the Schumacher ferrari era so I'm used to enjoying the stopwatch and strategy battles. Overtaking is a bonus but doesn't make the race for me. Actually, if the overtakes are predictible or low effort it can spoil my enjoyment.

[PlatinumZealot]

Horner himself put the pace advantage at 0.1-0.2 seconds per lap (Wolff said it was more towards 0.3s/lap) ... so over the race a theoretical total of roughly 7-14 seconds (or 21s if you go with Wolff's estimate), that's obviously not "dominant" (only compared to the field which was lapped in it's entirety) but enough to comfortably keep the Merc at bay and i believe it was quite evident in the race given that Max could easily respond whenever Lewis tried to get closer than 3s at various points in the race.

Yeah. I don't remember the leaders ever getting into DRS. The closest was 1.4 seconds if I recall. I also found it a strange comment when Lewis said this was the quickest RedBull have been this year. Looking forward to the Mercedes race review to see that clarified.

[RZS10]

My guess/interpretation would be that in all the previous races in which Merc had no shot at victory on pace (Baku and both at the RBRing) they knew they would struggle and had to experiment with the setup etc but here they probably felt like the car was fine with a decent setup and Lewis still couldn't really make an impression on Max despite pushing really hard throughout the entire race.

[dans79]

My guess/interpretation would be that in all the previous races in which Merc had no shot at victory on pace (Baku and both at the RBRing) they knew they would struggle and had to experiment with the setup etc but here they probably felt like the car was fine with a decent setup and Lewis still couldn't really make an impression on Max despite pushing really hard throughout the entire race.

Honestly I think Lewis should have won this race! If they had pulled him in right as Max was catching/passing Bottas and Lewis was only 0.7s behind he would have jumped max on the out lap with a normal pitstop.