Red Bull RB5

[xpensive]

Regarding Newey and his, difficult to argue with anymore, faiblesse for delicate and thus fragile soulutions, I think it is very much a matter of design-engineering philosophy.

You can start from theoretical perfection and work yourself away from there until you have satisfactory functionality and reliability or, you do things the other way around, use belt and suspenders to make sure it works reliably and go from there?

I believe Newey very much belongs to the former, so did John Barnard and Colin Chapman before him.

[kilcoo316]

From autosport

Although Red Bull Racing is set to join Ferrari and Renault in appealing against the decision by the Australian Grand Prix stewards to reject their protest about the diffuser designs, Horner confirmed his team was already evaluating copying the concept – in case the FIA confirms the legality.

"You cannot afford to wait," he said. "So effectively we have already had to start looking at alternative solutions."

Horner admitted, however, that using one of the diffuser designs on the RB5 was not straightforward because of the concept of its car – which includes the rear pull-rod suspension.

"It is feasible, but it depends how far you want go with it," he said. "Potentially it involves significant amounts of time if you were to really optimise to an extreme point – and potentially it involves half of the car. So it is not a quick or cheap solution."

I'm starting to become really disappointed in some of the reporting by supposedly informed sources on this issue.

The pull rod suspension has f**k all to do with RBR's problems in designing a double deck diffuser, if anything, it helps the implementation of it as the gearbox design space is not restricted by the presence of the suspension dampers/bars.


The double-deck diffuser question is purely an issue of space under the gearbox. The pullrods attach far, far ahead of this at the back of the sidepods - which is nowhere near the area in question.

[timbo]

The double-deck diffuser question is purely an issue of space under the gearbox. The pullrods attach far, far ahead of this at the back of the sidepods - which is nowhere near the area in question.

The effectiveness of the solution will depend on how much air you can channel over the diffuser. To make double decker work you must do waisted sidepods - and pullrod doesn't exactly help.

[djos]

From autosport

Although Red Bull Racing is set to join Ferrari and Renault in appealing against the decision by the Australian Grand Prix stewards to reject their protest about the diffuser designs, Horner confirmed his team was already evaluating copying the concept – in case the FIA confirms the legality.

"You cannot afford to wait," he said. "So effectively we have already had to start looking at alternative solutions."

Horner admitted, however, that using one of the diffuser designs on the RB5 was not straightforward because of the concept of its car – which includes the rear pull-rod suspension.

"It is feasible, but it depends how far you want go with it," he said. "Potentially it involves significant amounts of time if you were to really optimise to an extreme point – and potentially it involves half of the car. So it is not a quick or cheap solution."

I'm starting to become really disappointed in some of the reporting by supposedly informed sources on this issue.

The pull rod suspension has f**k all to do with RBR's problems in designing a double deck diffuser, if anything, it helps the implementation of it as the gearbox design space is not restricted by the presence of the suspension dampers/bars.


The double-deck diffuser question is purely an issue of space under the gearbox. The pullrods attach far, far ahead of this at the back of the sidepods - which is nowhere near the area in question.

I totally agree, i reckon that was just some BS made up by "ONE's" idiot reporters! :^o

[djos]

WTF!!!

Williams protest legality of F60 and RB5

It appears that the Williams F1 Team has protested the legality of the Ferrari F60 and the Red Bull RB5 after the qualifying session for the Australian Grand Prix. The Grove-based outfit would have concerns relating the aerodynamics of the front wings on their rivals cars. More news on the protest is not yet available.

[djos]

Weird!!

Williams had protested against the rear wings on the Red Bull and Ferrari cars, but withdrew their complaint.

[Conceptual]

The double-deck diffuser question is purely an issue of space under the gearbox. The pullrods attach far, far ahead of this at the back of the sidepods - which is nowhere near the area in question.

The effectiveness of the solution will depend on how much air you can channel over the diffuser. To make double decker work you must do waisted sidepods - and pullrod doesn't exactly help.

Then I guess that the RBR/STR4 is simply SOL.

I think that RBT would be better to git rid of Newey to be perfectly honest.

I'm sure that you may not find anyone with his pedigree, but I must say that his Red Bull cars have not been very reliable or fast. If there is ANYONE in F1 engineering that keeps his position due to his past, it would be Newey.

Just imagine how many brilliant recent engineering grads that RBT could pick up for his salary. Fresh blood that has a firm grip of what is realistically possible as well as outside the box thinking (or interpretation) with a focus on reliability and efficiency would much better suit RBT than Adrian.

We are a long way from the one-man design team, so maybe Newey is just lacking these talented individuals, and it is not him directly.

Who knows, but if Red Bull don't produce regular points this season, I would say that it is time for a change at RBT.

My 2 cents on the matter...

[ISLAMATRON]

The double-deck diffuser question is purely an issue of space under the gearbox. The pullrods attach far, far ahead of this at the back of the sidepods - which is nowhere near the area in question.

Seeing that the Diffuser does not kick up until after the rear wheel center line, which is way after the gearbox, why is it an issue of space under the gearbox?

Check this pic


Plenty of space on top of where the diffuser kicks up.

[kilcoo316]

The effectiveness of the solution will depend on how much air you can channel over the diffuser. To make double decker work you must do waisted sidepods - and pullrod doesn't exactly help.

Its how much air you can channel into the second deck - that comes from the side, its underfloor and it entrains in after the initial diffuser ramp.

The pull rods won't really affect that.


A diffuser effectively sucks air under the car - creating downforce on the floor ahead of it.


The air over the top of the diffuser is (1) a mechanism to further entrain more flow through the underside and (2) a way to generate a bit more downforce through momentum changes.

[kilcoo316]

Seeing that the Diffuser does not kick up until after the rear wheel center line, which is way after the gearbox, why is it an issue of space under the gearbox?

Check this pic


Plenty of space on top of where the diffuser kicks up.

Just pointing out the obvious... that is a single deck. Therefore the ramp is much less aggressive.


That is a pretty poor photo there too.

This is a little better for here - but you cannot see the transverse openings at the start of the diffuser here.



You can see surface curvatures where the suspension pick-up point is. Those are to clear volume above the upper deck.

There needs to be clearance between there and the actual diffuser surfaces to get the two effects I mentioned above.

The more room there is, the more aggressive the ramp rate can be for the 2nd deck, which will pull more air into the 2nd deck, which means more air under the car = more downforce.


I suppose I should be saying differential & gearbox, but its much of a muchness.

[djos]

Despite the shite ending for Webbo & Vettel at least the RB5 is a/ Fast & b/ reliable in Race conditions so far.

The RB5 is certainly the fastest of the non-diffuser cars. =D>

[ESPImperium]

The RB5 is indeed fast and relyable, but one thing it showed is that its also still alittle fragile when pushed, as the Kubica/Vettel incedent showed, the front suspension needs a little beefing up, as im shure that Vettel would have survived with damaged suspension if it was a little more robust, and Vettel took T5 a little slower as well.

[djos]

The RB5 is indeed fast and relyable, but one thing it showed is that its also still alittle fragile when pushed, as the Kubica/Vettel incedent showed, the front suspension needs a little beefing up, as im shure that Vettel would have survived with damaged suspension if it was a little more robust, and Vettel took T5 a little slower as well.

The front suspension of both Webber & Vettel survived their shunts but Vettel took a corner too fast with no front wing and hit the wall destroying his left front suspension.

To sum up, there is no problem with front suspension strength on the RB5.

[Callum]

i agree with djos...it was hardly a minor accident. Something that did suprise me though was that two of Kubica's wheels physically came off.. they should have stayed tetherd on.

[alelanza]

You can see surface curvatures where the suspension pick-up point is. Those are to clear volume above the upper deck.

There needs to be clearance between there and the actual diffuser surfaces to get the two effects I mentioned above.

The more room there is, the more aggressive the ramp rate can be for the 2nd deck, which will pull more air into the 2nd deck, which means more air under the car = more downforce.


I suppose I should be saying differential & gearbox, but its much of a muchness.

What's your take on this 'grounds effect resurgence' from Flavio talk we're getting? As i understand it it makes no sense and it's more of a Briatore thing, but still interested in your opinion.
TIA