2021 Italian Grand Prix - Monza, Sep 10 - 12

[Marty_Y]

[Hoffman900]

Still doesn’t do a good job showing the speed.

Here is a Spec Miata doing 80mph slower at peak, and it looks faster. It’s a better representation of what the eye sees vs. the F1 cam. They’re doing over 200mph in places!

[LM10]

What’s the point of FP2 tomorrow if you’re not allowed to change anything on the cars?

[Marty_Y]

What’s the point of FP2 tomorrow if you’re not allowed to change anything on the cars?

Yep that's my main problem with it, I suppose it's to do long runs and get a idea about tyre life.

But as you say you can't change anything, so it's just adding miles to the PU.

[JordanMugen]

It's nice, but I would like a wider field of view. It seems a bit claustrophobic with this lens (not that it isn't a claustrophobic position!), but as Alan Davies would say "other lenses are available".

Here is a Spec Miata doing 80mph slower at peak, and it looks faster. It’s a better representation of what the eye sees vs. the F1 cam. They’re doing over 200mph in places!

It's a GoPro or similar which has a very short focal length and a wide field of view.

[Just_a_fan]

That's not really how it works, it's not a literal tow with a rope

If a car gives a tow to the car behind it, and that car gives a tow to the car behind it, the car at the back gets the benefit of both tows.

A tow improves top speed (until you run out of gearing, of course). Driver A tows Driver B. Driver B is quicker than he would otherwise be. Driver C, if he is in the correct position, can gain a tow from Driver B. His own top speed will increase unless he hits the gearing/rev limits. Driver C's tow isn't as big as Driver B's, of course, but he will gain more than he would have if he'd only been behind one car. Obviously, if Driver B runs in to the rev limit, he can't gain and Driver C will also likely hit his limiter.

Again, it may work like that in computer games, but in real life it's not the case, particularly in F1 with the amount of turbulent air. The car ahead creates a drag reduction by creating an area of negative pressure, the fact there are two cars does not mean there is an additional effect.

There is no "negative pressure". There is pressure and there is less or more pressure. Once you get to zero pressure, that's it. Negative pressure doesn't exist (in the macroscopic world in which race cars work, anyway).

Tow is not about pressure, it's about resultant air flow direction. A car travels through still air. The air interacts with the car's surfaces and is deflected in various ways. The car pulls the air with it - that is what results in a resultant reduction in air speed felt by the following car. Drag is proportional to the square of the velocity. By dragging some of the air forward with it, the lead car reduces the effective air velocity of the following car. Thus the drag of the following car is reduced.

This effect is nicely demonstrated by the effect that wind has on the cars - a headwind in to a corner allows later braking. A tail wind requires earlier braking. Why? Because the head wind means more downforce, the tail wind means less downforce. Why? Because downforce changes with the square of velocity. A head wind increases the velocity, a tail wind reduces the velocity. A 40% change in air velocity gives a doubling / halving of downforce and drag.

Power absorbed by drag increases with the cube of air velocity. So a small reduction in velocity - such as caused by a car ahead dragging air with it - reduces the power required to overcome the drag. And so the car's speed can increase until the drag absorbs the power again.

Two cars will pull the air with them to a greater degree than will one car. Hence two cars can increase the tow effect on the third car because it experiences a more reduced effective air velocity than the second car.

[JordanMugen]

No one cares that RBR sacrificed Perez (again) for Max.

So when Merc tell Bottas to pull over for Hamilton tomorrow so he can get 3 points (since BOT is starting at the back anyway), there is not going to be a peep about it.

Right?

I care. I think it was very unsporting. Red Bull should have waited it out to wait for some other sucker to go first on the final Q3 run! (With amusement ensuring ala 2020 or 2019, whenever the mess was when no one wanted to go first.)

Most unreasonable for Perez to be expected to tow Verstappen. Better off to go with the pack, and let somebody else make the call to lead out.

[i70q7m7ghw]

Mark Hughes acknowledging the double tow:

Both Mercedes and Red Bull lined up their cars in both Q3 runs to use their support driver to tow their title contender. It worked quite nicely for Verstappen on the first of the runs, as Perez was getting a tow from the Honda-powered ‘cousin’ AlphaTauri of Pierre Gasly and was in turn towing Verstappen.

It will have given something a double effect as there is less air to displace than if Verstappen had been just towing one car.

I previously mentioned an article by Mark Hughes from 2012 which I personally found offensive and had caused me to form a negative opinion of Mark. However, I would like to retract what I said and apologise to Mark. I have recently learned Mark issued a full apology for that article which I accept and shows the original intent was not racist and that Mark has only ever shown full support for Lewis Hamilton. You can read that apology in full below:

[i70q7m7ghw]

If a car gives a tow to the car behind it, and that car gives a tow to the car behind it, the car at the back gets the benefit of both tows.

A tow improves top speed (until you run out of gearing, of course). Driver A tows Driver B. Driver B is quicker than he would otherwise be. Driver C, if he is in the correct position, can gain a tow from Driver B. His own top speed will increase unless he hits the gearing/rev limits. Driver C's tow isn't as big as Driver B's, of course, but he will gain more than he would have if he'd only been behind one car. Obviously, if Driver B runs in to the rev limit, he can't gain and Driver C will also likely hit his limiter.

Again, it may work like that in computer games, but in real life it's not the case, particularly in F1 with the amount of turbulent air. The car ahead creates a drag reduction by creating an area of negative pressure, the fact there are two cars does not mean there is an additional effect.

There is no "negative pressure". There is pressure and there is less or more pressure. Once you get to zero pressure, that's it. Negative pressure doesn't exist (in the macroscopic world in which race cars work, anyway).

Tow is not about pressure, it's about resultant air flow direction. A car travels through still air. The air interacts with the car's surfaces and is deflected in various ways. The car pulls the air with it - that is what results in a resultant reduction in air speed felt by the following car. Drag is proportional to the square of the velocity. By dragging some of the air forward with it, the lead car reduces the effective air velocity of the following car. Thus the drag of the following car is reduced.

This effect is nicely demonstrated by the effect that wind has on the cars - a headwind in to a corner allows later braking. A tail wind requires earlier braking. Why? Because the head wind means more downforce, the tail wind means less downforce. Why? Because downforce changes with the square of velocity. A head wind increases the velocity, a tail wind reduces the velocity. A 40% change in air velocity gives a doubling / halving of downforce and drag.

Power absorbed by drag increases with the cube of air velocity. So a small reduction in velocity - such as caused by a car ahead dragging air with it - reduces the power required to overcome the drag. And so the car's speed can increase until the drag absorbs the power again.

Two cars will pull the air with them to a greater degree than will one car. Hence two cars can increase the tow effect on the third car because it experiences a more reduced effective air velocity than the second car.

No words. Just no. There is no "pulling" effect.

It's called a tow because it's a metaphor, it's not literal.

[JordanMugen]

No contact, if it's Hamilton and Vettel you're referring to, This is completely ridiculous scenes in the pits, though.

They shouldn’t be allowed to start from the garage like that.

In other categories the car have to be lined up at 45 degrees in front of their garages. Could be an option?

[Just_a_fan]

Incredible lap by Verstappen. Perez was the 1st runner so everyone else had a slipstream including Hamilton. Mercedes on pace was 3-4 tenths ahead of RB but Max closed that gap to almost nothing when it mattered & Lewis Hamilton again failed to deliver when it mattered.

Sorry, which event were you watching? Hamilton never ran in the tow whilst Max ran in a tow each time.

It's great, you like Max / dislike Hamilton, but please at least have the self respect to be honest about the situation on track.

[JordanMugen]

There is a definitely a benefit to a multiple slipstream up to a point, I don't know why you are trying to argue the opposite. Look at bicycle racing, where aerodynamic drag is 80-90% of power consumption. You can find papers easily showing the reduction in drag from drafting two or three other riders instead of just one.

From: http://iawe.org/Proceedings/EACWE2013/B.Blocken.pdf (not a peer-reviewed article but you get the idea)



Of course F1 cars following at 100m distance is not the same as cyclists following at 100mm distance, but you get the get the idea at least!

No words. Just no. There is no "pulling" effect.

It's called a tow because it's a metaphor, it's not literal.

In other news, water is wet! What you say is understood. In seems like a "tow" because this is a powered vehicle, and with less resistance it accelerates faster for the same amount of power.

[PlatinumZealot]

Watching the video of the MX miatas it definitely seems there is a benefit of double drafting.

What are your thoughts on geese flying in the V formation?

[Just_a_fan]

This was not that good for Merc tbh. 100 % that Max will take P2 into turn one tomorrow with the dirty side for Lewis.

Indeed so. I can see Max being P2 after the first chicane. Unless the Mercs go in to the T1 nose to tail, of course, but even then T2 is a chance for Max.

[JordanMugen]

I am a neutral on this but watching the video of the MX miatas it definitely seems there is a benefit of double drafting.

There certainly is (up to a point)!

There is probably an article or simulation on this out there some where. Slipstreaming is going to be more effective in F1 than in categories with streamlined cars due to the open wheels and massive wings, one expects.

Edit -- I've only found this conference paper on the benefit of a Grand Prix car slipstreaming a single other Grand Prix car so far: https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/T ... a9194b4923