Could the RBR dominance slip up next year?

[Tommy Cookers]

It could be that out of the slow corners, where the current cars are outside of the power band (Which I presume to be around 16-18k rpm), the next years cars may not be outside of it and are thus transmitting more power at lower speeds and require larger tyres. With the power curve being fairly flat from 10500-15000 rpm next year, combined with 8 gears, it's possible they might always be in the power band.

IMO current car are not throwing away time because they are never outside the power band when so being would cost them time
that's what drive-by-wire aka torque and throttle mapping is largely about (and 7 ideal seamless 'instant shift' gears)
that's part of what all those data-mining engineers are doing for their pay
in effect the power band is homogenised to enable the accelerator pedal operator to always achieve the correct wheel torque
when they might appear to us to be out of the powerband they're happy to be there ie they're not missing anything useable

the 2013 cars have 750 hp most of the time and 810 hp for about 7 sec/lap
so as far as the tyre designer is concerned they are in effect 750 hp cars
the 2014 cars might be expected by the 'flat-fuelling' rules to make 750 hp combined power over a greater rpm range
and as has been said by CF, this will (at most tracks) give better continuity of maximum drive torque than current engines
if they have got it (the fuel allowance) wrong for this eg if the cars make 810 hp most of the time then the allowance will be reduced ?

recovered power will always be a proportion of combined power, but this proportion is limited to 120 kW
though 'obviously' RP would be most beneficial to laptime if the RP proportion is greater at lower car speeds ?
RP is only insofar as it contributes to a flatter power curve a mechanism raising the potential continuity of maximum drive torque

2014 driving will be arranged to maximise the benefit from this factor, ie more sacrificing of apex speed for earlier acceleration
is this really harder on the tyres ?

but it doesn't mean the maximum drives torque is greater in 2014
though of course the maximum drive torque will be greater in any 2014 engines making 800+ hp

[henra]

IMO current car are not throwing away time because they are never outside the power band when so being would cost them time
that's what drive-by-wire aka torque and throttle mapping is largely about (and 7 ideal seamless 'instant shift' gears)
that's part of what all those data-mining engineers are doing for their pay

Well, it is probably not quite as simple.
Naturally aspirated engines usually have their Maximum HP only in a very narrow RPM range of maybe 200 - 300 RPM. Outside that range HP will start to decrease.
(HP = Torque x RPM, meaning at lower RPM you would have to have actually a higher torque to maintain HP with increasing RPM. You could theoretically achieve this with superchargers and bypass valves, but usually even they keep torque constant over some range and thus increase HP with RPM. Naturally aspirated engines increase even torque with RPM, so the curve is much peakier. The higher the specific HP per Volume, the worse is the curve.
Therefore especially in the lower gears there will be quite some loss of effectove HP during the acceleration. If that HP could have been used by the available traction is a different question, though.

[Juzh]

the 2013 cars have 750 hp most of the time and 810 hp for about 7 sec/lap

830 hp

[Tommy Cookers]

Well, it is probably not quite as simple.
Naturally aspirated engines usually have their Maximum HP only in a very narrow RPM range ......
Therefore especially in the lower gears there will be quite some loss of effectove HP during the acceleration. If that HP could have been used by the available traction is a different question, though.

if the gear ratios are in inverse geometric progression (ie the same rev-drop on each upshift)
the loss of effective power will be no worse in the lower gears than elsewhere
AFAIK they are close to this situation ?
maybe because the traditional circuit-specific matching of ratios within the gearbox was eliminated some years ago

in 2014 the circuit-specific matching of final drive ratio is eliminated
so the drivers typically will in their driving select which 6 or 7 ratios to use from a set of 8 ratios fixed for 5 years or so
2014 rev-drop will surely be proportionately greater than currently ?
RBR have already shown enterprise in working on the relationship between gearing and driving technique

[Holm86]

Well, it is probably not quite as simple.
Naturally aspirated engines usually have their Maximum HP only in a very narrow RPM range ......
Therefore especially in the lower gears there will be quite some loss of effectove HP during the acceleration. If that HP could have been used by the available traction is a different question, though.

if the gear ratios are in inverse geometric progression (ie the same rev-drop on each upshift)
the loss of effective power will be no worse in the lower gears than elsewhere
AFAIK they are close to this situation ?
maybe because the traditional circuit-specific matching of ratios within the gearbox was eliminated some years ago

in 2014 the circuit-specific matching of final drive ratio is eliminated
so the drivers typically will in their driving select which 6 or 7 ratios to use from a set of 8 ratios fixed for 5 years or so
2014 rev-drop will surely be proportionately greater than currently ?
RBR have already shown enterprise in working on the relationship between gearing and driving technique

The ratios are not fixed for 5 years. They are fixed for the season. You are allowed to change those ratios between seasons. And once in season in 2014.

[Bredd]

I think it's finally happening. They are losing key technical staff 2 to mclaren, 1 to Williams and 2 to Mercedes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25444218

[Ferraripilot]

I think it's finally happening. They are losing key technical staff 2 to mclaren, 1 to Williams and 2 to Mercedes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25444218

+1 indeed. It appears the end is nigh.

If I were an engineer for Red Bull, I believe now would be the very best time to pull the plug on my Red Bull career as it would be more difficult to sell themselves to whichever team if Red Bull for instance placed 3rd or 4th in the WCC next year. Leaving while they're on top most certainly commands a greater chance in heading somewhere else, and being paid for such a move.

[timbo]

I think it's finally happening. They are losing key technical staff 2 to mclaren, 1 to Williams and 2 to Mercedes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25444218

+1 indeed. It appears the end is nigh.

If I were an engineer for Red Bull, I believe now would be the very best time to pull the plug on my Red Bull career as it would be more difficult to sell themselves to whichever team if Red Bull for instance placed 3rd or 4th in the WCC next year. Leaving while they're on top most certainly commands a greater chance in heading somewhere else, and being paid for such a move.

I don't think this is how it works in F1. It is tight pond and people know each other, so I don't think if you get a good rep you're going to loose that after a single bad season.
OTOH the departures of key personnel from RBR seems strange. Maybe others offer way more money but it may also hint on something which only people inside RBR are privy. Maybe DM has some downgrading of the team in his mind?

[Anon123]

I think it's finally happening. They are losing key technical staff 2 to mclaren, 1 to Williams and 2 to Mercedes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25444218

+1 indeed. It appears the end is nigh.

If I were an engineer for Red Bull, I believe now would be the very best time to pull the plug on my Red Bull career as it would be more difficult to sell themselves to whichever team if Red Bull for instance placed 3rd or 4th in the WCC next year. Leaving while they're on top most certainly commands a greater chance in heading somewhere else, and being paid for such a move.

I don't think this is how it works in F1. It is tight pond and people know each other, so I don't think if you get a good rep you're going to loose that after a single bad season.
OTOH the departures of key personnel from RBR seems strange. Maybe others offer way more money but it may also hint on something which only people inside RBR are privy. Maybe DM has some downgrading of the team in his mind?

That's what I've been thinking, perhaps DM has realised that Merc/Ferrari or both will have a big advantage next season with the new power units so he doesn't want to chuck money at the team if he thinks the team will lose out anyway. That's what I hope at least...

[Juzh]

I think it's finally happening. They are losing key technical staff 2 to mclaren, 1 to Williams and 2 to Mercedes now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25444218

+1 indeed. It appears the end is nigh.

hahahaha =D> =D> =D>

[henra]

Maybe others offer way more money but it may also hint on something which only people inside RBR are privy. Maybe DM has some downgrading of the team in his mind?

I guess it's the Money/Career.
DM wouldn't be where he is today if he were that stupid.
With the fundamental Regulation change now is the time to invest (or to retreat completely). Now you lay the foundation for the next few years. Miss the boat now and try to play catch up for a couple of years...

I guess it has to do with individual career considerations. After four or five years in one position in a company you normally arrive at a point where you must decide. If all higher ranks in your company are occupied or being staffed from the outside you have to look elsewhere. Being key part of a 4 times WCC Team is as good of a credential in your CV as it gets. Staying longer won't improve the perspectives.

[skoop]

according to an AMuS article there are fights at red bull between aerodynamics and simulation. they further state that aerodynamics startet the fighting. you can read it here. but: it's all just rumors, speculation and filling the winterbrake:

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 61191.html

[Phillyred]

While engineers can be very integral keys in the cog they are generally executing orders from their superiors.. I believe as long as Horner and Newey are in place a solid foundation still exists as far R&D goes both off season and during. They may not be as dominate in 2014 due to all the rules/regs changes, but they always seem to adapt and progress at a greater pace compared to the other big teams.. BUT, changes in the pecking order are always welcome to keep the sport interesting!

[Pierce89]

I get the feeling the Red Bull advantage will be eroded due to the loss of prodromou. In modern f1 DF comes mostly from minute geometry changes performed iteratively. This isn't Newey's domain but the aero dept., which has been weakened.

[timbo]

I guess it has to do with individual career considerations. After four or five years in one position in a company you normally arrive at a point where you must decide. If all higher ranks in your company are occupied or being staffed from the outside you have to look elsewhere. Being key part of a 4 times WCC Team is as good of a credential in your CV as it gets. Staying longer won't improve the perspectives.

That would be perfectly reasonable explanation if only one person left. But we have several over a short period of time, this makes it suspicious.