2018 Azerbaijan GP - Verstappen, Ricciardo clash

[adrianjordan]

I was really huge fan of Max, but what he does lately is just immature. Red Bull should consider switching with Gasly for race or two, because with Max it's just getting worse every race.

Hugely disappointing from Max today, slower than Dan in the race, banging into his wheels, running him out of track and then changing direction twice under breaking which ultimately cost the team a significant chunk of points!

RedBull really need to put Max in TR for a couple of races as punishment!

Another Daniel fan boy
I don't know how its in your country but if if you drive (crash) someone from behind you are always guilty!

Actually that's not true....always is such a strong word.

Let's consider this scenario, you're driving along on the motorway keeping a nice safe 2 second gap to the car in front. The car in front suddenly slams on their breaks and does an emergency stop for no apparent reason (maybe a fox ran out into the road) and you go into the back of them because they breaked so hard and without warning.

Are you still to blame when the cause of the accident was their dangerous breaking?

Another one that actually happens quite often in the area where I work. People disable their break lights and then break hard in order to make the car behind craah into them - in the hopes of getting some compensation out of the accident, known as "crash-for-cash". Is the car behind guilty? The Police certainly wouldn't assume so if there was evidence of the break lights not working.

Any way, off topic, but a bug bare of mine.

[George-Jung]

You do realize driving on roads and racing on a closed circuit are two different things? I mean C'mon. Max moved TWICE under braking. Twice, its illegal. Simple as that. But yeah continue.

Well, Phil from overhere actually doesn't..

And just to make one thing clear; Max never moved under braking.. have a look at the onboards + moment when he starts to downshift.

Max made his defensive move before braking, that is pretty much the only thing everybody agrees on.

Daniel 100% fault !!!!!!!!!
This time Verstappen has no blame in my opinion

Another Mad Max fan boi who cant comprehend the rule you are only allowed to move once defending your position!

Ok, last try-

We all agree that you are allowed 1 defensive move, so no need to argue here..

BUT! you are also allowed to go back to your original position, after you made the 1 defensive move..
Almost everybody overhere explains this move back to your original position as a 2nd defensive move.. but it just isn't.

Otherwise, could someone explain to me how it is possible to go back to the original position, without moving and without calling it a 2nd defensive move?

[dans79]

Almost everybody overhere explains this move back to your original position as a 2nd defensive move.. but it just isn't.

It is two moves, the stewards literally said that in their ruling.

https://www.fia.com/file/67883/download?token=KBMkK6jy

The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of which were relatively minor.

[digitalrurouni]

I think the language of the ruling of going back to your original line is what is causing the issue. It should be cut and dry "CANNOT MAKE 2 MOVES WHEN DEFENDING". Period. Did we see Verstappen make 2 moves? YES. End of story. Will Verstappen get penalized by Red Bull? Never. Cause they like Ferrari have their 'golden driver'. They did the same to Mark Webber. They are doing the same to Danny Ric. I am impressed so far Danny Ric has stayed at Red Bull with such a poisonous team atmosphere. After this race I am sure his mind is made up to NOT sign for Red Bull.

[djos]

I was really huge fan of Max, but what he does lately is just immature. Red Bull should consider switching with Gasly for race or two, because with Max it's just getting worse every race.

Hugely disappointing from Max today, slower than Dan in the race, banging into his wheels, running him out of track and then changing direction twice under breaking which ultimately cost the team a significant chunk of points!

RedBull really need to put Max in TR for a couple of races as punishment!

I don't know how its in your country but if if you drive (crash) someone from behind you are always guilty!

I'm actually a huge fan of Max too, when he's not crashing out he's phenomenal to watch! That wet Brazil race just blew my mind and totally reminded me of Senna at Donington all those years ago, he was brilliant.

[Bisonas]

Ok, last try-
We all agree that you are allowed 1 defensive move, so no need to argue here..

Correct !

BUT! you are also allowed to go back to your original position, after you made the 1 defensive move..

Wrong !

Otherwise, could someone explain to me how it is possible to go back to the original position, without moving and without calling it a 2nd defensive move?

You are allowed to go back or move towards the racing line in order to make the turn.
If your original position was the racing line, and then you move offline for the 1st defensive move, then and only then with extreme caution and always leaving enough space if you have a car besides you, you are allowed to go towards the racing line again in order to make the turn. Because if you don't, you won't be able to make the turn in a safe way. You would be forced to slow down in an unsafe degree.
Then and only then that second move doesn't count as a defensive move.

[Edax]

Almost everybody overhere explains this move back to your original position as a 2nd defensive move.. but it just isn't.

It is two moves, the stewards literally said that in their ruling.

https://www.fia.com/file/67883/download?token=KBMkK6jy

The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of which were relatively minor.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It is two moves but to my understanding making two moves is not necessarely forbidden under the current regulations (art 27 of the sporting code 2018).

What is not allowed is erratic driving, which I interpret as moves that cannot be anticipated by another driver. The crash was similar to that in Rosberg and Hamilton in Spain. But here Rosberg clearly stated his intentions, “I am going there, I will not stop and you if you dont get your wheels in you will have a problem”, by moving gradually and purposefully over the track even though he had already chosen his line on the outside. He gave Hamilton every chance to foresee his move.

In this case the moves were so sudden that they spooked Ric in the ill fated crossback even though he could have easily continued on the left since VES did maintain a gap there. I think that if VES had made the moves slower more spaced and more gradual so RIC had time to formulate a better reaction other than a jerk to the right, then he would be OK despite the two moves. It is OK to squeeze a guy a bit towards the corner, but not at this rate.

[marvin78]

Almost everybody overhere explains this move back to your original position as a 2nd defensive move.. but it just isn't.

It is two moves, the stewards literally said that in their ruling.

https://www.fia.com/file/67883/download?token=KBMkK6jy

The driver of car 33 made two moves, both of which were relatively minor.

Please correct me if I am wrong. It is two moves but to my understanding making two moves is not necessarely forbidden under the current regulations (art 27 of the sporting code 2018).

It's not forbidden but in race driving it IS generally pretty dumb as you can see. The problem is not the rules it's the sillyness behind such moves by any driver. It's luck if no crash results because of such behavior.

[Phil]

I think the biggest problem and dispute in this particular incident is reactive driving, e.g. blocking vs. defensive driving.

Reactive driving is dangerous, because it's blatant blocking. In other words, a defending driver is driving down a long straight and checking his mirrors to see what a faster coming car from behind is doing and reacting to it. If he sees the overtaker going to the inside line, he will react to it and use his car as an obstacle by going to the inside line too. If he does this too late, the overtaker with a much higher speed might not be able to react in time and crash into him. If he does have enough time, he might be forced to take evading action or choose a different line (e.g. the outside).

If a defending driver is reacting to the overtakers move(s) behind, this is what is generally referred to as "blocking". Blocking is usually not allowed in motorsports and many racing etiquettes prohibited this.

A more clean way to defend your position is to make your "defending move" pre-emptive, in other words before the overtaker does his move. Usually, the inside line is always the better line to overtake. A defending driver can simply move to the inside and commit to that line. An overtaker will only be left with using the outside for an overtake. Depending on speed differential, that may or may not be enough to make the overtake stick. A driver covering the inside is usually allowed (tolerated) to move back/closer to the racing line for the corner to not compromise his corner-entry and exit too much, but while doing so must leave enough space on the outside (at least a cars width) and is not allowed to crowd another car off the track.

Good defensive driving is not making it impossible for faster cars to pass. It's to make it as difficult as possible while remaining fair and within the scope of the rules.

Here's also a very good video (with many racing driver, particularly Indycar drivers talking about the difference between blocking and defending):

[TwanV]

Nice post Phil! There is big difference between American and "European" racing though, in the US all blocking is illegal. I saw a nice post in the race thread somewhere highlighting that DRS is also a factor in these situations and I agree to that. The defending driver is simply defenseless without the ability to block, making it kind of mandatory for drivers committed to their position.

[ThumbsUp]

I came accros this video about racing lines. Don't know if it's true or not, but it sounds all plausible.

[Bisonas]

Please correct me if I am wrong. It is two moves but to my understanding making two moves is not necessarely forbidden under the current regulations (art 27 of the sporting code 2018).

Up until last year (January 2017) on the Article 27 of the F1 Sporting Regulations all where stated very very clear.

27.6 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off-line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

27.7 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. Whilst defending in this way the driver may not leave the track without justifiable reason.
For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a ‘significant portion’.

27.8 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

On January 2017 FIA removed the detailed wording from the "F1 Sporting Regulations" and added the guidelines on the "International Sporting Code". This is much more complicated articles and involves specifics regarding all motorsport series under FIA.

On the "F1 Sporting Regulations" after they removed all the details, they added the following:

27.2 Drivers must observe the provisions of the Code relating to driving behavior on circuits at all times.

This is actually telling the drivers where they have to look for the driving behavior guidelines. The code this line is referring too is the "International Sporting Code"
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123
Appendix L of International Sporting Code
CHAPTER IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS

I hope this makes things little bit clearer for some.

EDIT: I don't know who is constantly rating me negatively for what ever i say, but thanks to the ones that level the score. i am trying to be as much specific as possible to what i write.

[miguelbento]

Nice view of the internal parts of the FW.

https://i.imgur.com/CkmhojH.jpg
Open in new tab for higher resolution.

Does someone know why did the Red Bulls stop after the come together?
It looks like Ricciardo could have continued, and change the front wing, no?

[Bisonas]

At this point i would like to quote a part of Ross Brawn interview to understand what is that we are saying for 3 days now.

"But I would like to highlight a technical point. Once Daniel had settled for his line, and Max had changed direction blocking that line, the Australian became a passenger. The downforce loss experienced by Ricciardo in the wake of Verstappen's car would have made it unstoppable.We often think of downforce in cornering, but the impact the extra grip has in braking is huge. Take away that grip in braking and what happened on Sunday was inevitable”

https://www.crash.net/f1/news/894965/1/ ... lash-brawn

[Phil]

There are some good points in that video illustrated well, but some other important points are missed completely at the same time. I also strongly disagree with the notion that defending and attacking is a level-playing-game. It isn't and most of the time, it's not a fair contest. Either the overtaking car is simply faster, he is using DRS, has a better car or is on quicker tires. More often than not and if the track allows it, a faster car will simply come through the traffic, regardless how hard a defending driver tries to stop him.

You can either be fair about it and concede a lost position or you can resort to irresponsible driving techniques like blocking. What is also missing in the above video is that Ricciardo was carrying a significant speed advantage over Verstappen of probably around 35kph or more. That is roughly a closing speed of 10 meters per second. To put that into perspective, a typical 2018 F1 car is roughly 5 meters in length. In other words, Dan was closing with DRS and a massive tow at the length of 2 F1 cars per second at a speed in excess of 300kph. If you account for around a second for reaction time, the fact that Dan was doing 35kph more (higher top-speed = more force = more energy required to brake), you can pretty much do the math on how dangerous it is for a driver to resort to "blocking", in other words reacting to your movement and moving directly into your path of driving. Doing that too late and a collision is unavoidable.