2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[Juzh]

Yea, and he gained a lasting advantage by pushing his competitor off the track, no no matter what way you slice it, max should have been penalized.

Yeah, he went off track himself in the process. That clearly means he lost control of his car and failed to make the corner. Hence it should have been an obvious order to hand the place to Hamilton. It doesn’t matter now because the right person won on merit, it would’ve been a disgrace if that had cost Hamilton a win.

But yet, I’m very concerned with what the sport is doing by saying that is ok. A lot of drivers will start going off track to force so,some else off. That is not racing. This is what happens when we lack gravel.

At some point the FIA need to go back and rethink all this nonsense since 2019. For me, racing was Russell vs Alonso at Austria. This other stuff since 2019 is not real racing.


They’re not even using the black flags enough. And in my opinion, the black flag is pretty meaningless if it isn’t a flag that carries over into future races like the penalty points do. Otherwise every driver has a “black flag card” to play every race. Which is enough to deny a rightful winner in a championship this close.

Unfortunately, id does matter, as Max would have been 3rd with a 5sec penalty (which was deserved).

He would just push more in that case, he was cruising after he got overtaken.

[Magicsenna_41]

here is some interesting information on Hamilton's engine, which may explain parts of the performance boost:

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-me ... n/6780713/

Quick summary in English on Twitter:

To remember everyone Mercedes has 2 engines (#4 and #5) in the pool for Hamilton.
Or am I wrong in this?

[politburo]

If I was merc, I would be showing the video of max forcing Lewis off again and again and again. It’s a different rule for max to everyone else. How can anyone be punished for not leaving room on the outside anymore? Max ran himself off the road in running Hamilton off the road. I don’t understand what the rules are anymore.

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

[ringo]

'Stellar clinical'-Horners statements become more and more ridicolous checking these stats.

These speed trap numbers are utterly meaningless. Gasly was literally inches behind alonso when crossing speed trap line. You cant just take them at face value. Reality is hamilton was gaining 7-8 tenths up the hill and he started to gain that time troughout entire straight, not just the very end. Quite obviously he had a chunk more power compared to max.

Sector 2 speed trap is not really worth mentioning as its a very short straight and if you have a good exit it will show in higher speed. Perez fit soft tyres at the end was obviously very fast trough that section.

The only meaningful data is the delta times, Max would leave the Junction 1.1 seconds and by the finish line it was 8-9 tenths, then he'd gain it in the Senna S' and then lose another 2 tenths on the straight to T4. It is amazing speed. Even onboard, you'd see Hamilton eating up the car in front like Usain Bolt eating up ground after a bad start and still winning the race.

But what were the lap time differences between Max and Lewis?
Not much was it?

Mercedes just got the setup right and had a clearly stronger engine. This engine is no stronger than any other.
Ferrari were flying in Turkey with Sainz and his new engine. It's the same here. New engine, vs older engines.
3 more races to go.. Let's say Honda lost 7% of its power so far from 1000 hp. That leaves them with 930hp.
For argument sake mercedes engine is also 1000hp. They have a 70hp advantage without any cheating or super steroids engine.

[Starkblood80]

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

But 2 of those, Bahrain is doubtful IMHO, were punished with time penalties where as today’s incident wasn’t. So at the bare minimum the stewards have an issue with consistency, especially when it comes to Max’s “crowding” of other drivers.

[bosyber]

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Had those been judged a racing incident, reaction on this one would have been different from a lot of people. The fact that those happened, and quite a few other drivers getting penalised for crowding in between makes the stewards not feeling today this needed any investigation pretty nonsensical. Personally, I do think that such crowding should not be (and not have been!) allowed from anyone (keep the racing between the lines, basically), but it is more important to me that there's a consistent rule about that.

[cooken]

Has there been any forward facing onboard from Max yet?

[straightline]

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Hamilton missed the apex by a few inches, we don‘t know if max would have made the corner anyway

max on the other hand missed the track! by „a few and a bit more“ inches and lewis would have made the corner.

but silverstone was a high speed corner, brasil was’t.
As stewards, a “will be investigated after the race” would have been the best decision. if hamilton wins, ignore the incident. if max wins, look at the onboards snd telemetry (how you would not hdnd a 5s penalty after that, is beyond me)

[politburo]

These speed trap numbers are utterly meaningless. Gasly was literally inches behind alonso when crossing speed trap line. You cant just take them at face value. Reality is hamilton was gaining 7-8 tenths up the hill and he started to gain that time troughout entire straight, not just the very end. Quite obviously he had a chunk more power compared to max.

Sector 2 speed trap is not really worth mentioning as its a very short straight and if you have a good exit it will show in higher speed. Perez fit soft tyres at the end was obviously very fast trough that section.

The only meaningful data is the delta times, Max would leave the Junction 1.1 seconds and by the finish line it was 8-9 tenths, then he'd gain it in the Senna S' and then lose another 2 tenths on the straight to T4. It is amazing speed. Even onboard, you'd see Hamilton eating up the car in front like Usain Bolt eating up ground after a bad start and still winning the race.

But what were the lap time differences between Max and Lewis?
Not much was it?

Mercedes just got the setup right and had a clearly stronger engine. This engine is no stronger than any other.
Ferrari were flying in Turkey with Sainz and his new engine. It's the same here. New engine, vs older engines.
3 more races to go.. Let's say Honda lost 7% of its power so far from 1000 hp. That leaves them with 930hp.
For argument sake mercedes engine is also 1000hp. They have a 70hp advantage without any cheating or super steroids engine.

Apparently they are running their engine into the ground apparently.

[F1NAC]

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Hamilton didn't go off the track as far as I remember? This today was clearly pushing your competitor off the track. That is his attitude. As soon as you are racing Verstappen in the corner he is going to push you off no matter what. The guy just clearly cannot race clean wheel to wheel. And that is just sad, because he is being "protected" by FIA by not even initiating investigation. Luckily Lewis managed to passed him.

Lewis got 10 second penalty in Silverstone. Max should have been penalised as well. At least they should have ordered him to give the position back immediately.

And booooooy that radio between RB and FIA with that "Let them race" bullshit. They were not speaking like that when Max was in the barriers. Pathetic from them.

Just to be clear, not a fan of Merc neither RB.


On the other note. Congrats to Lewis, that was a GOAT drive this whole weekend. Got penalised, kept his head down, clinical and cold in the race. What a race.

[MtthsMlw]

Qatar can't come soon enough, loving this championship so far. Things really heating up now.

[ringo]

surely your memory is not that short, Hamilton did that to Verstappen in Bahrain earlier this same year, and you could clearly see onboard Lewis closing the steering angle despite Verstappen being right alongside, people said racing incident, and Verstappen despite going past had to give the place back an ended up in 2nd. That and the Silverston racing incident, which after seeing the trajectory analysis again and again and again just feels like a huge pile of leniency for the sake of leniency from the FIA.

All of this about absolutely nothing. Verstappen has got penalties for his driving in Monza as well. That also happened.

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Nope not the same. In both cases Max is the one moving across. He was on the inside in this case, and he turned twice. The video replays will reveal. Hamilton has always raced Max fairly. Even in Silverstone he kept a predictable and single trajectory only for max to hack across into him. Max as usual hacks at his steering wheel to crash others.
Today he was in full control and there were no signs of understeer or lockups. He just knew he was beaten fairly.

I think he is afraid of Hamilton deep down. I can smell the melt down coming.. he may end up losing this championship because he lost his nerves here whenever Lewis gets within 1 second of him.

[politburo]

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Had those been judged a racing incident, reaction on this one would have been different from a lot of people. The fact that those happened, and quite a few other drivers getting penalised for crowding in between makes the stewards not feeling today this needed any investigation pretty nonsensical. Personally, I do think that such crowding should not be (and not have been!) allowed from anyone (keep the racing between the lines, basically), but it is more important to me that there's a consistent rule about that.

The FIA sedom apply their own rules consistently, If it was a gravel trap outside of T4 or just grass there would most certainly be penalties, but perhaps because Hamilton recovered?. It's like in Monza, Hamilton did crowd the inside of T2 but because verstappen crashed into him then the FIA give him 3 place grid drop. And other examples of crowding like Sainz an Norris on lap 1, and causing a collision, they give no penalties there because it's lap 1. But they gave Tsunoda a penalty despite the fact Stroll gave him no space, didn't give Giovinazzi a penalty yesterday for colliding with Raikonnen either. Gasly overshoot the corner and nearly runs into Ocon and people say that's a racing incident as well. Its truly all over the place.

Imo penalties should be applied on consequence first then intent 2nd.

[politburo]

The only real difference between here and silverstone is the fact Hamilton didn’t try and turn in on Verstappen, the incidents are almost identical otherwise. The only thing that seems to have saved max from
A penalty is Hamilton actively avoiding contact. If you thought Hamilton was in the wrong at silverstone then there’s no real defensive of Verstappen today.

If Silverstone was a racing incident, and many of you Hamilton fans claimed it was, then so is this one and the one in Monza as well an the one in Bahrain. That is my point.

Nope not the same. In both cases Max is the one moving across. He was on the inside in this case, and he turned twice. The video replays will reveal. Hamilton has always raced Max fairly. Even in Silverstone he kept a predictable and single trajectory only for max to hack across into him. Max as usual hacks at his steering wheel to crash others.
Today he was in full control and there were no signs of understeer or lockups. He just knew he was beaten fairly.

I think he is afraid of Hamilton deep down. I can smell the melt down coming.. he may end up losing this championship because he lost his nerves here whenever Lewis gets within 1 second of him.

You're just plain wrong about Silverstone, Hamilton was barely making the corner there. There is plenty of trajectory analysis for this. Max gave him plenty of space lol. It's inarguable, the analysis is already, no need for conjuncture sorry.

Lol if anything Merc are afraid of Max because he literally doesn't care if he wins, he's a realist, he takes what is given, and is only 24 btw he is in no rush to win championships. Lewis has everything to lose and has the faster car, why would Max be afraid of that?. Hhe literally had no defence and they knew this from the start of the weekend, even from Perez having been passed like a pice of paper. If Max was so scared of Ham why wouldn't he just slow down to give Perez DRS and keep it a DRS train?.

[politburo]

These speed trap numbers are utterly meaningless. Gasly was literally inches behind alonso when crossing speed trap line. You cant just take them at face value. Reality is hamilton was gaining 7-8 tenths up the hill and he started to gain that time troughout entire straight, not just the very end. Quite obviously he had a chunk more power compared to max.

Sector 2 speed trap is not really worth mentioning as its a very short straight and if you have a good exit it will show in higher speed. Perez fit soft tyres at the end was obviously very fast trough that section.

The only meaningful data is the delta times, Max would leave the Junction 1.1 seconds and by the finish line it was 8-9 tenths, then he'd gain it in the Senna S' and then lose another 2 tenths on the straight to T4. It is amazing speed. Even onboard, you'd see Hamilton eating up the car in front like Usain Bolt eating up ground after a bad start and still winning the race.

But what were the lap time differences between Max and Lewis?
Not much was it?

Mercedes just got the setup right and had a clearly stronger engine. This engine is no stronger than any other.
Ferrari were flying in Turkey with Sainz and his new engine. It's the same here. New engine, vs older engines.
3 more races to go.. Let's say Honda lost 7% of its power so far from 1000 hp. That leaves them with 930hp.
For argument sake mercedes engine is also 1000hp. They have a 70hp advantage without any cheating or super steroids engine.

Btw it is is delta times not lap times, delta time from the Junction to the finish line, go watch the race again on F1Tv from around lap 44 to 55. You will clearly see it.