2021 Engine thread

[Jolle]

Can we just get 3.2L V12s with a single centrifugal supercharger (max boost @18000rpm), direct injection, and TJI?

Should get us 1500 hp with midrange torque and screaming noise as well as being cheap enough to run a new one every weekend.

And no possible electrocutions...

Why not go back to steam engines if we like obsolescent technology that much?

Why does an activity that involves racing bespoke cars around a track require anything as advanced and complicated as the current power units?

If you could get more power from a simpler arrangement, I'd vote for that as well.

And don't forget. A large part of the fan base wants simple engines that do not cause in race failures, or pre race penalties. And they want them loud.

Can steam engines compete on power to weight ratios against a supercharged ICE?

I thought not...

Cheap power is not a problem. Just a simple block with a huge turbo and you've got it. The thought process of rule making go in the opposite direction. They start with an objective in HP they want and come up with a challenging set of rules for manufacturers to meet that goal.

As for why these very complicated PU's: efficiency of investment. Of course, a 3.0l V12 could reach well up to 1000hp but the only use for all the tech developed for a engine like that is to no use other then F1. Apart from the real exotics, even Ferrari, McLaren, Porsche and Mercedes are all downsizing with turbo's. The engine recovery tech, the combustion chambers and injecton methods will see it's way to production engines pretty soon, just not always at the places you expect them... 50% efficiency it not something you going to find in a hypercar, but in a city car, or truck, of bus.
Daimler, Renault and FiatChrysler (and Mahler of course) can now use their billions they invested in F1 use for their production engines.

[Tommy Cookers]

yes this '50% efficiency' design is good PR
but exhaust recovery is a waste of money (doesn't work) except in high power use

so a waste of money for a city car
son-of-Prius design is better for that

[Zynerji]

I guess I'm just after racing with less excuses and failures.

1000hp engine that cost 25k$ each compared to a 1000hp power unit that cost 2m$ seems like an awful business decision.

If the rules were open, and not pigeon holed, then the manufacturer competition would make sense.

Currently, the rules make F1 like the special Olympics... Even if you win under the arbitrary and restrictive formula, you are still handicapped by definition.

[Jolle]

yes this '50% efficiency' design is good PR
but exhaust recovery is a waste of money (doesn't work) except in high power use

so a waste of money for a city car
son-of-Prius design is better for that

street cars are operating mostly at maybe 25% of their power but if you take trucks and city busses, they are operating at 70-90% of their power. Especially on a modern Diesel engine, a H unit would make sense.

[mzso]

I guess I'm just after racing with less excuses and failures.

1000hp engine that cost 25k$ each compared to a 1000hp power unit that cost 2m$ seems like an awful business decision.

If the rules were open, and not pigeon holed, then the manufacturer competition would make sense.

Currently, the rules make F1 like the special Olympics... Even if you win under the arbitrary and restrictive formula, you are still handicapped by definition.

I what world is 25k for an engine realistic? In whichever formula they'd sink a lot of money to gain some performance. If there's a power limit then they'd do it to improve efficiency.

[Jolle]

I guess I'm just after racing with less excuses and failures.

1000hp engine that cost 25k$ each compared to a 1000hp power unit that cost 2m$ seems like an awful business decision.

If the rules were open, and not pigeon holed, then the manufacturer competition would make sense.

Currently, the rules make F1 like the special Olympics... Even if you win under the arbitrary and restrictive formula, you are still handicapped by definition.

Apart from the crazy eighties, engine rules have been very very strict. The highpoint of this were the last years of the V8's with even a max rev.

If you want a tuning festival, go to your local track and see what they can do with that 25k engine. If you want to see how the big boys make these fascinating difficult but powerful PU's, 1000hp and smooth like a V16 but as efficient as a TDI, watch F1.

By the way, even the DFV in the sixties was already 125.000 pond each(would be over a million now?). Hi-tech is expensive. One of the attractivenesses of F1 is jets, carbon fiber, high tech, Monaco and ludicrous investments for small gains.

[djos]

I guess I'm just after racing with less excuses and failures.

1000hp engine that cost 25k$ each compared to a 1000hp power unit that cost 2m$ seems like an awful business decision.

If the rules were open, and not pigeon holed, then the manufacturer competition would make sense.

Currently, the rules make F1 like the special Olympics... Even if you win under the arbitrary and restrictive formula, you are still handicapped by definition.

A V8 super car engine costs $40k just to rebuild, so an F1 engine that costs $25k is impossible imo.

[NL_Fer]

As long as the manufacturers prefer a 2M hybrid over a 25000 V12, we well see (and hear) hybrids on the grid.

[mzso]

BTW when were the engines as cheap as 2 million? 20 years ago? At the end of a the long freeze in 2008 maybe?

[wuzak]

The 2.4 V8s were cost capped at about $7-$10m for a supply of 8, plus a couple of spares (I guess).

This was for a frozen engine design.

And not what it cost the manufacturers.

[wuzak]

yes this '50% efficiency' design is good PR
but exhaust recovery is a waste of money (doesn't work) except in high power use

so a waste of money for a city car
son-of-Prius design is better for that

Electric car is better for a city car.

Exhaust recover would work for a series hybrid - ie where the wheels are driven electrically and the ICE charges the battery/provides power to the motors.

They would not need the MGUH, however.

By the same token, manufacturers like Ferrari and BMW are developing electric turbos - using an electric motor to spool the turbo at low engine rpm and recovering energy at other times.

[mzso]

Exhaust recover would work for a series hybrid - ie where the wheels are driven electrically and the ICE charges the battery/provides power to the motors.

They would not need the MGUH, however.

Yes. It would work best in a setup like that, at constant RPM.

[Tommy Cookers]

.....By the way, even the DFV in the sixties was already 125.000 pond each(would be over a million now?). Hi-tech is expensive. One of the attractivenesses of F1 is jets, carbon fiber, high tech, Monaco and ludicrous investments for small gains.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anyt ... -formula-1
seems to say the DFV cost only £10,000 in its day (not £125,000)

Ford's deal was £25,000 for the production of the FVA and £75,000 for the production of the DFV
£100,000 for everything
design and production capability and a DFV by May 1967 and 5 DFVs by Jan 1968 with 1 year support
Ford allocated engines in 1967 (to Lotus only)
iirc when Cosworth sold the DFV to other teams eg Tyrrell's Matra for Stewart they wanted to charge £9,000
Ford said 'charge more - we'll make sure teams can afford what you charge'

[Jolle]

.....By the way, even the DFV in the sixties was already 125.000 pond each(would be over a million now?). Hi-tech is expensive. One of the attractivenesses of F1 is jets, carbon fiber, high tech, Monaco and ludicrous investments for small gains.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/anyt ... -formula-1
seems to say the DFV cost only £10,000 in its day (not £125,000)

My bad! Got the then and now prices mixed up

[NL_Fer]

Exhaust recover would work for a series hybrid - ie where the wheels are driven electrically and the ICE charges the battery/provides power to the motors.

They would not need the MGUH, however.

Yes. It would work best in a setup like that, at constant RPM.

Yeah, that would sound exciting. Constant RPM vacuumcleaner