2015 Canadian Grand Prix - 5-7 June

[drunkf1fan]

They'll almost certainly have a bunch of 'reliability' updates alongside the actual token usage updates so it's not worth relating increases in power compared to the number of tokens used and certainly not trying to use that to guess what they can get from future token usage. If a new fuel type is being used that makes the increase from tokens directly even less quantifiable. IIRC Mclaren gained something like 30bhp last year from a fuel update with no other changes at all.

Overall though, it sounds like Merc are bringing updates also, just not token based ones, for all we know their 'reliability' updates could bring 40bhp more.

I wouldn't say Ferrari has a major problem on harder compounds. Kimi has shown some good pace on the hard tire and Vettel's 'slow' pace on hard tire isn't really down to the tire at all. It's because it's the final stint, a slower car keeping up with a faster car which is running conservatively is worthwhile. A slow in/out lap or some traffic could mean the undercut and stealing a position. When you come out after the last pitstop or get passed easily within a couple of laps there is simply no reason to keep pushing. Vettel has seemed slow in final stints on the hard tire because once effectively any realistic hope of passing the Mercs has gone they try to save the engine/gearbox/everything else as well. While I do think the Ferrari isn't as good on the harder tires as Merc, I don't think it's that bad either as shown by Kimi's various competitive stints on hard tires. It's more a Ferrari strategy situation that creates those bigger gaps.

The real issue is Mercedes and their strategy. They've been trying to get their engines through 6 races where every other engine has done 3-4 races max. They've almost certainly had their engines turned down to achieve frankly unnecessary reliability. Merc will probably run the season like this(for all but Hulk I believe), 1 base engine, 1 reliability updated engine, 2 token and reliability upgraded engines. Ferrari will probably finish the season with 2 base engines, 1 reliability/part token upgraded engine, 1(or 2) reliability and fully token upgraded engines. When Merc decide their remaining engines only have to do 4 races a piece and they turn up the engine a bit I frankly expect to see all the Merc teams move forward compared to everyone else rather than Ferrari get noticeably closer to Merc.

[GPR-A duplicate2]

If we go by renault's Remi Taffin from some years ago 80 bhp is worth ~2s of laptime round monza. So that's around 0,75s benefit for 30 bhp increase. Canada is somewhat less power dependant (but still a lot) compared to monza, so I'd say 0.5s is in the realm of possibility IF 30 bhp rumours are to be believed (unlikely). And that is a lot imo.

FERRARI HOPING TO CHALLENGE MERCEDES WITH 30HP BOOST FROM NEW DEVELOPMENT ENGINE - JamesAllenonF1

It will be interesting to see how much closer the new Ferrari power unit brings them to the Mercedes cars. The gap in qualifying has been around 7/10ths of a second and there should be around 3/10ths in the power unit upgrade, if the indiscretions on the extent of the update are accurate. The gap in races, however has been less (apart from Spain, where Ferrari struggled with the tyres)

Obviously I gave a rough estimate. 3/10 seems on the low side tbh, considering old 80bhp kers was worth 3-4/10 in a measly 6.7s.

Not saying that you are wrong. Maybe with aerodynamic profile changes over the last few years, a 30 BHP power isn't the same as it was a few years back with respect to overall lap time. Increase in weight of the car (Weight Vs Power ratio) and reduction in overall downforce must be some of the factors to be considered to compare today and back then to calculate how much a 30 BHP can add to the lap time.

[Morteza]

[bdr529]

Some Canadian GP history/facts

[Webber2011]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JZPyMul884

Well it should be interesting to see Max and Massa next time they are fighting for position !

All in all that would be one of the most uncomfortable press conferences I've seen in years.

[atanatizante]

They'll almost certainly have a bunch of 'reliability' updates alongside the actual token usage updates so it's not worth relating increases in power compared to the number of tokens used and certainly not trying to use that to guess what they can get from future token usage. If a new fuel type is being used that makes the increase from tokens directly even less quantifiable. IIRC Mclaren gained something like 30bhp last year from a fuel update with no other changes at all.

Overall though, it sounds like Merc are bringing updates also, just not token based ones, for all we know their 'reliability' updates could bring 40bhp more.

I wouldn't say Ferrari has a major problem on harder compounds. Kimi has shown some good pace on the hard tire and Vettel's 'slow' pace on hard tire isn't really down to the tire at all. It's because it's the final stint, a slower car keeping up with a faster car which is running conservatively is worthwhile. A slow in/out lap or some traffic could mean the undercut and stealing a position. When you come out after the last pitstop or get passed easily within a couple of laps there is simply no reason to keep pushing. Vettel has seemed slow in final stints on the hard tire because once effectively any realistic hope of passing the Mercs has gone they try to save the engine/gearbox/everything else as well. While I do think the Ferrari isn't as good on the harder tires as Merc, I don't think it's that bad either as shown by Kimi's various competitive stints on hard tires. It's more a Ferrari strategy situation that creates those bigger gaps.

The real issue is Mercedes and their strategy. They've been trying to get their engines through 6 races where every other engine has done 3-4 races max. They've almost certainly had their engines turned down to achieve frankly unnecessary reliability. Merc will probably run the season like this(for all but Hulk I believe), 1 base engine, 1 reliability updated engine, 2 token and reliability upgraded engines. Ferrari will probably finish the season with 2 base engines, 1 reliability/part token upgraded engine, 1(or 2) reliability and fully token upgraded engines. When Merc decide their remaining engines only have to do 4 races a piece and they turn up the engine a bit I frankly expect to see all the Merc teams move forward compared to everyone else rather than Ferrari get noticeably closer to Merc.

+1
AMuS said Merc has done only reliability upgrades which could help them running more time in the race with a power qualy mode.
Previously they were running in races with a 20hp less power mode than qualy ...

Now what's wondering me is the fact that in the end of the day there is a power increase and must be called due to a token upgrade rather than a reliability upgrade ...
Bearing in mind that now they have more power mode times available in the races that would come down from ERS side and to be more specific is due to an ES upgrade, hence their A123 system batteries, which opposed to SAFT ones these batteries need to run at lower operation temp ...
And here is what I struggle to understand : had they done a power upgrade which is done from one of the six PU's elements you won't call it a token update and rather a reliability one?

[Juzh]

Previously they were running in races with a 20hp less power mode than qualy ...

I seriously doubt it was only that much. Not with only 4 PUs a year.

[Phil]

I agree... they must be giving themselves quite a margin. If they weren't, I think the gaps would be a lot smaller in qualifying. The big question is; are they running these margins during the race because they have to (or feel they do) or are they just being conservative, playing it safe? In Malaysia, the only race so far where they clearly lacked pace vs. the Ferrari, it was probably out of their hands, since the limiting factor wasn't power, but tyre wear...

[Jordan44]

Rosberg says tyre warmup will be an issue here. So advantage Merc once again.

[SiLo]

They'll almost certainly have a bunch of 'reliability' updates alongside the actual token usage updates so it's not worth relating increases in power compared to the number of tokens used and certainly not trying to use that to guess what they can get from future token usage. If a new fuel type is being used that makes the increase from tokens directly even less quantifiable. IIRC Mclaren gained something like 30bhp last year from a fuel update with no other changes at all.

Overall though, it sounds like Merc are bringing updates also, just not token based ones, for all we know their 'reliability' updates could bring 40bhp more.

I wouldn't say Ferrari has a major problem on harder compounds. Kimi has shown some good pace on the hard tire and Vettel's 'slow' pace on hard tire isn't really down to the tire at all. It's because it's the final stint, a slower car keeping up with a faster car which is running conservatively is worthwhile. A slow in/out lap or some traffic could mean the undercut and stealing a position. When you come out after the last pitstop or get passed easily within a couple of laps there is simply no reason to keep pushing. Vettel has seemed slow in final stints on the hard tire because once effectively any realistic hope of passing the Mercs has gone they try to save the engine/gearbox/everything else as well. While I do think the Ferrari isn't as good on the harder tires as Merc, I don't think it's that bad either as shown by Kimi's various competitive stints on hard tires. It's more a Ferrari strategy situation that creates those bigger gaps.

The real issue is Mercedes and their strategy. They've been trying to get their engines through 6 races where every other engine has done 3-4 races max. They've almost certainly had their engines turned down to achieve frankly unnecessary reliability. Merc will probably run the season like this(for all but Hulk I believe), 1 base engine, 1 reliability updated engine, 2 token and reliability upgraded engines. Ferrari will probably finish the season with 2 base engines, 1 reliability/part token upgraded engine, 1(or 2) reliability and fully token upgraded engines. When Merc decide their remaining engines only have to do 4 races a piece and they turn up the engine a bit I frankly expect to see all the Merc teams move forward compared to everyone else rather than Ferrari get noticeably closer to Merc.

+1
AMuS said Merc has done only reliability upgrades which could help them running more time in the race with a power qualy mode.
Previously they were running in races with a 20hp less power mode than qualy ...

Now what's wondering me is the fact that in the end of the day there is a power increase and must be called due to a token upgrade rather than a reliability upgrade ...
Bearing in mind that now they have more power mode times available in the races that would come down from ERS side and to be more specific is due to an ES upgrade, hence their A123 system batteries, which opposed to SAFT ones these batteries need to run at lower operation temp ...
And here is what I struggle to understand : had they done a power upgrade which is done from one of the six PU's elements you won't call it a token update and rather a reliability one?

Think this has been explained before. If they run the engine ragged and get 800HP on the test bed, FIA note that down.

So when they come to race weekends and they can only reliably run 750HP, and reliability upgrade that gives them the ability to run 770HP for the weekend is just that, reliability. The engine is not producing more horsepower that it was before, its just they can use more horsepower for a longer period.

[mikeerfol]

A bit OT: Why isn't this stickied yet?

[Afterburner]

Think this has been explained before. If they run the engine ragged and get 800HP on the test bed, FIA note that down.

So when they come to race weekends and they can only reliably run 750HP, and reliability upgrade that gives them the ability to run 770HP for the weekend is just that, reliability. The engine is not producing more horsepower that it was before, its just they can use more horsepower for a longer period.

Do you think it's that easy?

Anyone can do a "suicidal run" on test bed to obtain, let's say 1000hp, and then they only need to do "reliability updates", it's just unthinkable, like Kevin Oleary says, it has to be a better way.

[Juzh]

Rosberg says tyre warmup will be an issue here. So advantage Merc once again.

Hard warm-up on the super softs in canada? i aren't think that tbh.

[PlatinumZealot]

A bit OT: Why isn't this stickied yet?

Why?

[SiLo]

Think this has been explained before. If they run the engine ragged and get 800HP on the test bed, FIA note that down.

So when they come to race weekends and they can only reliably run 750HP, and reliability upgrade that gives them the ability to run 770HP for the weekend is just that, reliability. The engine is not producing more horsepower that it was before, its just they can use more horsepower for a longer period.

Do you think it's that easy?

Anyone can do a "suicidal run" on test bed to obtain, let's say 1000hp, and then they only need to do "reliability updates", it's just unthinkable, like Kevin Oleary says, it has to be a better way.

How will get get 1000HP when they can only use a certain fuel flow rate?