2008 Japanese GP

[Project Four]

And since when does anyone have the "right" to fight to un-lap themselves? If Fernando was behind Lewis, and very close, wouldnt Lewis have gotten Blue Flagged? I read the thread, but I simply did not see anything that gave a real reason as to why on the last lap of the race, a car that was lapped and oviously out of contention has the "right" to get back on the lead lap. If I am wrong, then what exactly are the blue flags for?

There is nothing wrong with un-lapping yourself - it's not arrogant or aggressive - it is VERY SENSIBLE. First, the leader won't resist (no need). You never know - if any other cars ahead of you on the road have any trouble (breakdown, accident - whatever) - you have a chance of picking up some places..............

To follow Alonso home would have ended LH's race on that same lap.

So, you are saying that if you get blue flagged to allow the leader through on the last lap, it is ok to ignore it? Or allow the leader to pass, and then try to re-overtake?

That makes ZERO sense in any type of logic. In the end Lewis was lap traffic, not fighting for position, and it really came across as nothing but jealousy.

Conceptual it does make sense. If Hamilton had not unlapped myself, his race would have end as soon as Alonso crossed the line. By unlapping himself he was in a position that if any drivers in front of him had any problems and retired he would have gained their place.

This is very common to see at the end of the race.

[myurr]

So, you are saying that if you get blue flagged to allow the leader through on the last lap, it is ok to ignore it? Or allow the leader to pass, and then try to re-overtake?

That makes ZERO sense in any type of logic. In the end Lewis was lap traffic, not fighting for position, and it really came across as nothing but jealousy.

I'm over this race already, and looking forward to China. Maybe Lewis will take himself out there AGAIN, and the rest of the field won't have to deal with him at all.

It's a whole lot simpler than that - to be caught and lapped you've got to be going slower on track than the car doing the lapping and once they've caught you and are in a position to overtake, you'll be given blue flags and will have three corners to move out the way.

If there is a change of pace and you are then the faster of the two, such as on the last couple of laps where the leader tends to slow down, then you are free to overtake. If they speed up and catch you again, you have to let them past.

If the leader makes a mistake, runs really wide, and loses a whole bunch of time should a just passed back marker queue up and wait for him to get under way again? No, he'll carry on at race pace until the leader catches him again.

In this instance Alonso slowed as he was cruising to the finish, and Hamilton took the opportunity to unlap himself. This is a practice that has been going on for quite literally decades and is nothing untoward.

[Shaddock]

I think Lewis got punished at turn one for 'smokin' his tyres which made the incident look a lot worse than it really was. In the clouds of burning rubber from Lewis, Heikki appears to run Kimi off the road not Lewis. see what you think?




(1) Lewis has lost his head at this point and has locked up going into turn 1



(2) Still locked up, and nudging ahead of Kimi down the straight.



(3) Lewis appears to have got the wheels turning again and managed to turn in to the corner. Almost a cars length in front of Kimi who has plenty of space still. No sign of Lewis forcing anyone off the track here.



(4) Lewis is over a car's length in front of Kimi at this point with Heikki who has outbraked himself as well (without a lockup) coming up on Kimi's inside.



(5) Lewis is still on the track a car's length in the lead, Heikki and Kimi side by side with Heikki running wide and forcing Kimi off.



(6) Heikki starting to force Kimi off the track



(7) Heikki overtaking Kimi, and forcing him wide, both cars running off the track.

I've seen many cars miss their braking points and run wide, Alonso in a Mclaren in Canada did it all afternoon. How many times has a driver gone to overtake on the inside of a hairpin and outbraked themselves and run wide, forcing the car on the outside to either run wide with them, or brake earlier and dive inside.

Lewis needs to mature and see the big picture otherwise he'll keep on giving the FIA all the excuses they need. The Bourdais incident just proves that the FIA desperately want Ferrari to win.

[andartop]

By unlapping himself he was in a position that if any drivers in front of him had any problems and retired he would have gained their place.

Yeah, if 5 cars retired on the last lap Lewis had a good chance of earning himself some points!!!
It doesn't make much sense to me, unless if he had in mind a masterplan to finish his race as spectacularly as he started it...

[vyselegend]

I admit I haven't been a fervent defensor of Bourdais up to now, but this time the guy deserves to be supported.

First, he came with an impressive performance in the race, while the Mt Fuji layout wasn't supposed to suit him at all, given the sort of problems he have with the STR3, so hats down for the fair and square beating of his damned good team mate.

Then, all that effort is being blown off by the Ferrari International Assistance usual intervention, which is particulary sordid as it could very well be the finishing blow of his career.

________________________
freedom_honda, I think you got it right. I've come to the same point during the off season. That was after MacLaren officialy made so much profit out of being rolled in the mud, as to illustrate the famous motto of marketing people "there's no such thing as bad visibility".

That's how I understood the "raison d'être" of the Ferrari bias, and why the FIA doesn't seem to need to hide it, and are keen to act openly, in front of the whole world. Remember Flavio's quote that regulary comes on the main page "Formula One is not just about sport and technology. What attracts people is: the glamour, the lifestyle, the drama."

Though this is tough to admit for us racing fan, what Flavio says is true. If racing goes well and there's no crap ruining it, us fans will have a good week end, but the majority of the world won't bother look at the GPs. But if a team is accused of cheating , if there is disrespect among drivers, if a driver betray his team etc, in one sentence if the racing is soiled, then you can see F1 on the top page of newspaper, even in TV's news around the world. Heck, even Mosley's disgusting sexual behavior did put F1 on prime time...

Whenever the FIA give Ferrari some points they didn't gain, some victories they didn't have, even some titles they didn't win(!), the whole F1 world (minus some Ferrari fans) is gutted, and swears F1 has lost all respect, but F1 is more spoken about than ever... "there's no such thing as bad visibility". That's the story of it really.

It means even the discussion we have right now is somehow playing into their hands, the more we get pissed about their unfairness, the happier they are.

But allow me one last point: Though it is clearly comprehensive in those condition that any racing fan comes to despise the Ferrari team, and be shocked of the capacity of their fans to blind themselves in total denial of what everyone sees, this is in no way Ferrari's fault! If a teacher is unfair and cherrish a pupill among the others, as that can happen sometimes, the priviligiated student will always be the target of the others, while if you take some distance, it is quite obvious the fault is in the teacher.
I know some Ferrari fans who are obviously not very proud of this crap, and tend to avoid seing it, but they are just brave enthusiasts who fallen in love of Ferrari's magnificient road cars, or historic racing cars from their times of glory. I find that respectable, and I understand their position. So let's keep the respect toward the Ferrari team, and especially toward the Ferrari fans of F1T like mx tifosi, who already showed lots of diplomacy and patience toward some real Mac Laren trolls sometimes.

We are all the "bastard" of someone else anyway...

[axle]

By unlapping himself he was in a position that if any drivers in front of him had any problems and retired he would have gained their place.

Yeah, if 5 cars retired on the last lap Lewis had a good chance of earning himself some points!!!
It doesn't make much sense to me, unless if he had in mind a masterplan to finish his race as spectacularly as he started it...

That's a fair point but would you in his position (*racing* driver) want to end the race with A)the ignomany of being a lap down or B)be on the lead lap even if you are well behind.

I know when I race I hate being a full lap down in the classifications! And lets face it, with the FIA so keen to help Massa they could well have found a reason to DQ everyone from 1-6th across the line and thus reclassified Lewis in the points!

[Project Four]

By unlapping himself he was in a position that if any drivers in front of him had any problems and retired he would have gained their place.

Yeah, if 5 cars retired on the last lap Lewis had a good chance of earning himself some points!!!
It doesn't make much sense to me, unless if he had in mind a masterplan to finish his race as spectacularly as he started it...

Andartop, you will note that I said if, and you may or may not known that in the past there have been races where in the last lap four and five drivers have had problems (Monaco 1982 and San Marino 1985 of the top of my head). So it wasn't so stupid.

I dare say that if Hamilton hadn't overtaken Alonso and five or six drivers had had a problem, you would have been the one of the first to be on the forum laughing about what an idiot Hamilton was. Yes the guy makes mistakes but sometimes IMHO, whatever the guy does people find reasons to lambast him.

[shir0]

So, there goes the whole "2008 Golden Age Of Drivers" thread. I think it's pretty indicative of the quality of our 2008 heroes that 3 races before the end of the championship and with both championships up for grabs, the 2 main contenders just can't get their act together and finish a race properly (ie as expected from a candidate champion, in 1st place!), they can't fight properly, they can't overtake properly, they can't even avoid getting penalised for silly amateurish mistakes or dubious moves.. It is a shame in my opinion that both lewis and massa just cannot seem to be able to handle the pressure, that Piquet and the STRs finished the race ahead of both, and that even kimi failed to win this race.. congratulations to alonso and kubica, though sworn ferrari fan i am so tired of watching mistakes this year that i wish somehow kubica ends up winning the damn thing!!!

AMEN! Halellujiah!...wisest thing I've ever read in this thread!

[shir0]

Who has played their joker engines for the year, in terms of the champoinship leaders, Hamilton/Massa/Kubica and their team mates as well, as they can be instrumental in the rest of the season i think.

Massa has (if memory serves it was at Monza), Hamilton hasn't (so that's two new engines for the last two races). Not sure about Kubica.

hey, myurr...did VMM change the engine on LH's car after his DNF in Canada? I don't think he has two engine changes to play for the last two rounds. There's only two races left and according to the rules...

28.4
...

f) Except during the last Event of the Championship season, each driver will be permitted to use a replacement engine without incurring a penalty the first time this becomes necessary during the season.

so it's either one of these things will happen:

a) (if he didn't have an engine change after Canada) After the Japanese GP, his engine had just run 2 consecutive events (GP weekend) and so is up for a new engine in the next GP.

b) (if he did have an engine change after Canada) he can invoke the rule for a new engine in the next GP.

...and, for no logical/technical/strategic reason i can think of...

c) (if he didn't have an engine change after Canada) VMM puts on a new engine in LH's car for the Chinese GP...but then after FP2, decides to invoke the "joker engine rule" so he can have a new engine for Qualifying practice, Qualifying and the Race.

All that said, I don't think he can have a new engine for the Brazilian GP. Same thing goes for Kubica except the unknown is if he did/didn't have an engine change after the British GP.


EDIT: oopsss...wait...I think there's a scenario where they both can have new engines in Brazil. If both LH and Kubica had their engines changed after their respective GP retirements/DNFs, then they both had new engines in Japan which will run their 2nd consecutive event in China. So then, they'll both have a new engine for Brazil. But definitely, both of them can't have new engines in each of the last 2 remaining GPs.

[myurr]

shir0 - no idea, and I didn't even know about the clause that the engine change can't be taken in the last race. So beat me round the head with the clue stick!!

James Allen said that Hamilton could run with two new engines in the last two races during the commentary, but he could be wrong if he also didn't know about the clause that would rule out a swap in Brasil.

[freedom_honda]

shir0 - no idea, and I didn't even know about the clause that the engine change can't be taken in the last race. So beat me round the head with the clue stick!!

James Allen said that Hamilton could run with two new engines in the last two races during the commentary, but he could be wrong if he also didn't know about the clause that would rule out a swap in Brasil.

Hamilton still got his joker engine.

[andartop]

Andartop, you will note that I said if, and you may or may not known that in the past there have been races where in the last lap four and five drivers have had problems (Monaco 1982 and San Marino 1985 of the top of my head). So it wasn't so stupid.

I dare say that if Hamilton hadn't overtaken Alonso and five or six drivers had had a problem, you would have been the one of the first to be on the forum laughing about what an idiot Hamilton was. Yes the guy makes mistakes but sometimes IMHO, whatever the guy does people find reasons to lambast him.

I guess neither you nor anyone else for that matter is in the position to tell what is going through my mind, or Hamilton's mind. Anyone who has watched that move can draw their own conclusions on whether LH was indeed carrying out a "strategic move" or was just being childish with his arch rival Alonso. I have always been in my short presence in this forum the first to criticize my favourite team's own drivers before criticizing any other driver, and I have never used the word "idiot" to criticize ANY driver. I do believe all 20 F1 drivers are great. That said, I think both LH and Massa drove like amateurs in Japan, definitely not as champions. And I find that whatever happens, people prefer to see conspiracies instead of what is really happening in front of everyone's eyes: drivers f*&king up big time under pressure... wherever there's smoke, there's fire, and if LH is the driver with the highest ratio of penalties per race, maybe it's time for some people to accept that his driving has a lot to do with the amount of penalties he is receiving.

[Ray]

Forgive me for beating a dead horse, but why is it okay for Hamilton to fight to unlap himself and put Alonso at risk and yet it's NOT okay for Massa to expect Sutil to give way to the leader in pit lane? I was always brought up in every type of racing to ALWAYS give the leader the right of way in any situation. The leader is the leader and you must yield to him at all times.

I think Massa was completely at fault for turning Lewis around and he deserved the penalty. I don't however think that Massa deserves a penalty for his pass on Webber. Yeah it was tight, but they were nowhere close to colliding and no one was coming out of the pits. No harm, no foul. Lots of drivers got away with going over the pit entry line without a penalty, that is probably why he wasn't penalized.

I'm undecided about Lewis in turn one. It was a stupid move, mainly because he didn't need to lead the race. I think it's his overzealous moves that are costing him. I'm not saying he shouldn't race, he should just do it with a more level head and take risks when he needs to. Now especially. When you're in a title fight it's better not to win a race and collect valuable points than screw yourself out of points altogether.

Overall it was a great race, my guy Alonso won so I'm happy of course. But the stewards really need to get their --- packed and leave. They are engineering another championship and I'm really starting to not like F1 politics. It's ridiculous.

[freedom_honda]

Forgive me for beating a dead horse, but why is it okay for Hamilton to fight to unlap himself and put Alonso at risk and yet it's NOT okay for Massa to expect Sutil to give way to the leader in pit lane? I was always brought up in every type of racing to ALWAYS give the leader the right of way in any situation. The leader is the leader and you must yield to him at all times.

how was that pass putting Alonso at risk?
Hamilton was metres away from Alonso.

[shotzski]

how was that pass putting Alonso at risk?
Hamilton was metres away from Alonso.

I also saw Alonso slowed down to let Hamilton pass. I guess he was aware of Lewis's situation.