2024 Mclaren Formula 1 Team

[venkyhere]

I would like to give my honest opinion. Hear me out before passing judgement. I might play devil's advocate and some may be hurt if I say it but I have to say it. Do you know that the line between success and failure is very thin? People these last two days tend to ignore many factors that lead to that result and tend to overexaggerate the result. Sure I agree that Lando screwed yet another start and I agree that Max drove a masterful race but let's see.
1)He started 17th. 4 places were vacant as they started from the pitlane so 13th. Two cars were the B-Team who got orders to let him pass against the rules of the competition so 11th. After that he passed 4 cars and none of them even made an attempt to defend and I was dissapointed in Piastri not even trying to defend.
2)The first car that defended was Charles Leclerc and Max never managed to pass him. He was stuck for 26 laps.
3)The VSC ended the moment both George and Lando entered the entrance of the pit lane. Nobody could predict that and that damaged their safe pit stop window.
4)Then there was a normal SC that bunched up all the cars. Norris passed Rusell and he was at that point faster than Max and the two Alpines by 4 seconds per lap. Still the SC bunched up the field and it's safe to say that the first three had to enter or risk getting passed. In any case you would expect that Max and both Alpines would have been at the end of the pack until Colapinto somehow lost the car on Safety Car speeds. The Red Flag was a total lucky event noone could predict giving them a free pit stop.
5)Under normal circumstances Max would have been dead last without the Red Flag and then nothing suggests he would be able to pass everyone considering he couldn't pass Leclerc not to mention he would be stuck in the dirty air. I will agree that he would have been on the top 10 but not in the podium places.

Good job for his masterful race but let's not overexxagerate.

Didn't want to talk about a non Mclaren driver here, but there are some factual errors above -
To go from P17 to P6 and get to the tail of LeClerc, Max overtook 9 cars (there were just 2 vacant spots on the grid, not 4). Then he got lucky that he didn't have to overtake LeClerc, Tsunoda, Norris, Russel, because they all pitted. The only other overtake he did was Ocon after the second safety car. So overall 10 overtakes in total (2 did not start, 3 started behind ; to account for a total of 19 cars other than himself).

However, the matter of high praise for him is not really about the 'number of overtakes' anyway.

All the mainstream/social media hype about this 'verstappen masterclass' is 90% by people who don't understand racing , but from those 10% who actually understand, it is not about the P17 or the number of overtakes etc.. It's about the cleverness and skill involved in how different the lines he chose to drive were (for example the outside T3 passing of 3-4 cars in first lap was reminiscent of the same thing from brazil 2016 ; another example was how much kerb he was taking on T12 to straighten before applying full throttle for sector3) , about how he was braking into T1 and yet not locking up his fronts, and how smooth the inputs were for all the sector2 turns. The car wasn't eccentrically loaded at any point where he had to saw at the steering wheel to wrestle back the car (of course, don't know what he was doing with his feet because we can't see it on the onboard footage). As a result his tyres were in much better shape than anyone.
Yes he got lucky with red flag ; yes, many of the laptimes (until the 2nd safety car) were very similar to Russel/Norris. But it was the way in which those laptimes were achieved without punishing the car/tyres.
All the praise across the paddock from 'people in the know' is really about how differently he was driving to everyone else. It's not about the 'how much gap' or 'how many places' or any such measurable numbers.

Max was great, but Pierre Gasly got from 15th to 3rd in an Alpine! An Alpine! Phenomenal, probably drive of the day, due to the total comparative nature of what they were driving.

Of course, make no mistake, Gasly and Ocon drove superbly, no lockups, no mistakes, nothing. At excellent pace. But both of them didn't have to 'pass' people to get there (probably Gasly passed a few at the start). Passing cars in a chase, means going off the line and finding a way, in conditions with a single racing line. In the wet, peak performance of a car isn't called for, because there is no peak grip. So none of the cars were able to use full power (except may the final sector3 full throttle, but which again depended on the quality of exit from T12). That equalized the playing field and the Alpine's engine deficit didn't matter. So it was all about skill in the wet. I also thought Russel drove superbly, that Mercedes is a handful and keeping Lando behind in his far superior car, is testament to Russel's talent. There were so many great performances in the Brazilian GP, but Max's performance stood out for the ease with which he was passing cars and the ease with which he set the flurry of fastest laps.

[venkyhere]

There is a lot of outrage in social media about 'poor McLaren strategy' to call Lando into the pits, when the eventual three podium finishers decided to stay out. That is a nonsense argument. WJ tried his level best to plod Lando to stay out for as long as possible, it was Lando who had worn inters and finding the grip undrivable - he feared going off (which he did many times even with fresh inters, eventually). There was nothing wrong with pitwall strategy (they can't just ignore a driver's plea and force him to drive without grip) in this race. There have been strategy mistakes in the past, but that doesn't mean that aspect needs to be blamed for this race.

[Dafnalina]

[BMMR61]

So much performance was down to having the car in the window of tyre performance. As the rain intensity changed so did the relative competitiveness of the cars. It was a bit concerning that Lando's start looked down to McLaren's power mapping, he got a good reaction time and got off the line extremely well and then in the second phase went backwards. Who thinks this was down to the driver's right foot? I'm certain that if he had held Russell out into the first turn, Lando would have driven away from the field. I've been critical of Lando at times but I think he's faced too much from the media and fans for someone who doesn't handle the scrutiny well. He was well beaten this time by the best driver in the sport.

I know that radio messages don't get broadcast in real time but the constant bleating between Lando and Will I thought was another display of mental weakness. Metaphorically, he's like someone who chews his nails! Just drive the damn thing and hopefully the race engineer is on top of all the relevant information (though I sometimes doubt that). It sounded just a bit like Sochi revisited.

[BMMR61]

I've been outspokenly against team orders, or at least what I judge as premature application of. The "what if Lando loses by less than X points" arguments have abounded and I was prepared to stand by my belief that the WDC was too unlikely as to deny our drivers the opportunity to race. Naturally I would have to admit I got it wrong if the unlikely happened, now I ask those who called for Oscar to give it up for Lando if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong. Or maybe at Las Vegas where almost inevitably the WDC will be decided. Anyone ready to admit they were wrong?

Where are you Buxton?

[Ben1980]

I've been outspokenly against team orders, or at least what I judge as premature application of. The "what if Lando loses by less than X points" arguments have abounded and I was prepared to stand by my belief that the WDC was too unlikely as to deny our drivers the opportunity to race. Naturally I would have to admit I got it wrong if the unlikely happened, now I ask those who called for Oscar to give it up for Lando if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong. Or maybe at Las Vegas where almost inevitably the WDC will be decided. Anyone ready to admit they were wrong?

Where are you Buxton?

Can't really see how it could be wrong trying to make the most of the possibility to win a drivers championship.

I think even a 1% chance is worth trying for.

I dont think that they should have changed anything though before they did, I have no issues with him it was handled apart from Monza, which the team accept they didn't sort properly.

[proteus]

I've been outspokenly against team orders, or at least what I judge as premature application of. The "what if Lando loses by less than X points" arguments have abounded and I was prepared to stand by my belief that the WDC was too unlikely as to deny our drivers the opportunity to race. Naturally I would have to admit I got it wrong if the unlikely happened, now I ask those who called for Oscar to give it up for Lando if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong. Or maybe at Las Vegas where almost inevitably the WDC will be decided. Anyone ready to admit they were wrong?

Where are you Buxton?

Can't really see how it could be wrong trying to make the most of the possibility to win a drivers championship.

I think even a 1% chance is worth trying for.

I dont think that they should have changed anything though before they did, I have no issues with him it was handled apart from Monza, which the team accept they didn't sort properly.

They could try with everything and push Oscar down, potentionally damage their relations and maybe make him go elsewhere. Instead they decided to let them get their results and somewhat keep peace in the team and get themself two drivers which will cooperate in the future when needed.

[Ben1980]

I've been outspokenly against team orders, or at least what I judge as premature application of. The "what if Lando loses by less than X points" arguments have abounded and I was prepared to stand by my belief that the WDC was too unlikely as to deny our drivers the opportunity to race. Naturally I would have to admit I got it wrong if the unlikely happened, now I ask those who called for Oscar to give it up for Lando if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong. Or maybe at Las Vegas where almost inevitably the WDC will be decided. Anyone ready to admit they were wrong?

Where are you Buxton?

Can't really see how it could be wrong trying to make the most of the possibility to win a drivers championship.

I think even a 1% chance is worth trying for.

I dont think that they should have changed anything though before they did, I have no issues with him it was handled apart from Monza, which the team accept they didn't sort properly.

They could try with everything and push Oscar down, potentionally damage their relations and maybe make him go elsewhere. Instead they decided to let them get their results and somewhat keep peace in the team and get themself two drivers which will cooperate in the future when needed.

Think if anything it spoke that the team never really felt the WDC was on, but then did change just in case.

I have no issues with how they did it.

[FittingMechanics]

I've been outspokenly against team orders, or at least what I judge as premature application of. The "what if Lando loses by less than X points" arguments have abounded and I was prepared to stand by my belief that the WDC was too unlikely as to deny our drivers the opportunity to race. Naturally I would have to admit I got it wrong if the unlikely happened, now I ask those who called for Oscar to give it up for Lando if they are prepared to admit they got it wrong. Or maybe at Las Vegas where almost inevitably the WDC will be decided. Anyone ready to admit they were wrong?

Where are you Buxton?

I have few issues with this view.

First of all it is very defeatist, thinking that there is no chance that Norris can catch Verstappen when it looked like we had good pace and Verstappen did not. Once again major issue for McLaren was that other teams stepped up (Ferrari) and we lost a bunch of points that could have been ours (just like when Mercedes won their races).

There was a realistic chance Norris could have caught up and the team should have been ready and willing to capitalize on it. Just like they are willing to swap drivers around in races when someone has better tires, they should have been ready to do it when necessary.

I can accept (and agree) that taking away Hungary win would be quite devastating as it was to be first win for Piastri but I would say that the fact that Piastri jumped Norris at start and couldn't match his pace later in the race made that win feel quite undeserving. We all saw that Piastri can win a super race in Baku. That would have been much better first victory. To me, the whole "jump at the start" or race until we call it off seems unnecessary when it was clear that Norris should be prioritized. I think the team should have been clear that they will not race at the start for the victory. Allowing this just increases risk and would mean Norris will be more aggressive in next races that could mean a big points loss.

To me, the team showed real inability to think about WDC when they didn't swap in Monza. This was for P2 so it didn't really mean much to Oscar and they didn't do that easy swap.

I think that we need to be clear that to fight against Max Verstappen we need to be able to prioritize a single driver when it becomes clear. He is prioritized in Red Bull, not just because he is fast but because they want to maximize any points. Just like Ferrari swapped Barichello in that early Austria race, I am sure Red Bull would swap Perez if they ever felt someone was threatening them (hello 2025). It will be very hard to win against Verstappen because of that.

[FittingMechanics]

Overall inability to be decisive in prioritizing follows general trend of McLaren in being indecisive in strategy. This needs to improve in following years and we need to be ready to prioritize the leading driver when it becomes logical.

Maybe agree before the season that if someone has a chance of WDC at mid season point, that the driver is prioritized.

[Watto]

Overall inability to be decisive in prioritizing follows general trend of McLaren in being indecisive in strategy. This needs to improve in following years and we need to be ready to prioritize the leading driver when it becomes logical.

Maybe agree before the season that if someone has a chance of WDC at mid season point, that the driver is prioritized.

Yeah I think if they prioritized Lando I think Lando would have been a very good chance of winning the WDC. But does it potentially upset Oscar.

I think in a way Lando as driven well enough to have been given that opportunity at the same time, I think Oscar has shown something Lando hasn't quite as well yet. To take more 'risk' with overtakes - calculated yes, but the I am not here to make friends attitude. One that stands out in a way was his overtake of Lando with the dive down the inside in the first few corners. I get where Lando might have been thinking as a team we hold Max off then go from there but Oscar saw his opportunity where Lando left the door open.

Oscar still doesn't have the one lap pace of Lando for quali that hurts. Feels too like he has had a few more lapeses than Lando - not mistakes just races or periods of races where he seemed just a little off the pace. Where I don't think he could drive at the same lap time as Lando -where Lando has been outdriven my Oscar but not to the point Oscar could drive away...if that makes any sense at all. Bit of experence there and I think it will improve from both of them

[organic]

Oscar has better overall racecraft & is as quick as Lando when he's on it despite 5 years less experience. He lacks consistency ATM but I feel that's something that always comes with experience (unlike for example more speed). Both will improve but logically it's unlikely that Lando will be improving as much as Oscar still is. Not to mention Oscar's more steadfast mindset.

Imo McLaren should get ready to put eggs in the Oscar basket long term, and I think they see this which is why making piastri a #2 from very early on simply wasn't an option for them this year. Alienating piastri while Merc are looking for a Hamilton replacement and red bull need a pilot wouldn't have been smart

The extra points that would've been on offer by prioritising Norris more earlier in the championship don't add up to a lot either imo. 20 at a push.

[FittingMechanics]

I don't think Oscar ever really showed he is faster than Norris. In Hungary he got the jump at the start. In Baku he qualified well ahead because Norris had bad luck in qualifying. Maybe Monza, I don't really remember details of that race.

About better racecraft, he does seem to be more aggressive and decisive (some wheel banging proves that) but he isn't as good at managing tires.

Not sure I agree any of them have significantly different ceiling.

[mwillems]

Even if they don't put their eggs in one basket, to be a number 1 driver you have to have the talent and mindset to claim it.

Lando hasn't been able to convert his one lap pace into the points he needs to go for the WDC or be number 1 at his own team.

Even with his poor performances Piastri has pulled in about the same points as Lando over the past 11 or 12 GPs.

I wouldn't put my eggs in any basket yet, I think Oscar has some way to go in consistency, racecraft and tyre management. I'm happy for them to fight it out. If Lando can't get on top of Oscar next year then the writing is on the wall. With 4 years more experience in F1 and experience with the team and the car, he shouldn't have ever needed the team to prioritise him.

[basti313]

I don't think Oscar ever really showed he is faster than Norris. In Hungary he got the jump at the start. In Baku he qualified well ahead because Norris had bad luck in qualifying. Maybe Monza, I don't really remember details of that race.

In Monza they did less strategic errors on Piastri. They did not pit him into traffic. That was basically the difference, his overall pace was same, his strategy in terms of tire management worse as he was in the end too late to catch Leclerc. They could not have swapped, as there was still the chance to get Leclerc and Norris was much too far away.

Funny thing in hindsight: Verstappen was the traffic, that prevented Norris from winning.