Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen came together in the first lap of the British Grand Prix, and despite a penalty, the reigning World Champion won his home race. Charles Leclerc finished a close second as Bottas came home in third.
They claim that they took a picture of a printout which was shown to them and they had to remake the image because they could not just post that picture as it's normally an internal document or sth like that - there's no guarantee that this is legitimate or accurate.
I can imagine that their translation is a bit wrong (if there was any text on the original) or that their recollection of what was said messed up the meaning a little.
For the leftmost image i can imagine the actual text being more similar to the green/yes option on the right.
This is supposedly a recreation/translation of the agreed upon guidelines for the drivers and stewards for overtaking which were sent to Masi by Wolff:
The automatic translation is a bit wonky but good enough.
So Toto sent a diagram proofing that it was Lewis’ fault?
He's the green car on the inside in the first image, he doesn't have to be ahead.
The diagram does not make sense as for the situation on the left both drawings are the same. But on the most left the green car must be ahead as it says that the car on the inside must be significantly ahead.
They are not the same and the text does not say that he must be significantly ahead (?)
It says "signifikanten Überhang" which translates to "significant overlap". Ahead would be "signifikant vorne" or similar.
I've thrown the relevant part into google translate with some fixes:
I have now gotten my hands on the diagram that Mercedes team boss Toto Wolff emailed to FIA race director Michael Masi during the race. This applies as a recommendation for actions for drivers and as an orientation for the FIA race stewards in order to classify such collisions.
The diagram clearly shows that a driver trying to overtake an opponent in a corner does not have to be on the same level. An example image on which the front wheel of the attacking car is only about one wheel width in front of the rear wheel of the defending car ("significant overlap") is literally illustrated as follows: "The corner is yours. Provided you can make it through the corner cleanly."
It is therefore clear: The question of guilt is not as clear as Red Bull wanted to sell to us. And given this diagram, it is also understandable why Mercedes' chief race engineer Andrew Shovlin even thinks that the ten-second penalty was too severe. Because it would have been Verstappen who should have yielded, and not Hamilton.
Now you can argue heartily about whether this rule (which, admittedly, was not previously known to me in this form) makes sense. But the fact is: the drivers and teams of course knew more about it than the TV viewers and I, who in the first impulse were mostly inclined to declare Hamilton insane and of course blamed him.
A reflected study of the collision also includes the fact that Hamilton certainly had his share in the crash, and so I stick to my assessment from the video race analysis on Sunday evening, which read: Hamilton, unlike Verstappen, tried to prevent contact (at least at the last moment). [edit: what?] But the punishment was justified in my subjective perception.
Last edited by RZS10 on 19 Jul 2021, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
Driver61: "In my opinion, this was 100% Lewis Hamilton's fault."
As for the incident itself, probably still a racing incident in my book, with more blame attributable to Hamilton.
The issue here is really the brinkmanship both drivers are beginning to engage in.
My suspicion is, Hamilton did the calculus and realized the potential outcomes of contact in that corner largely favoured him, rolled the dice, and was proved correct. Further, he appears relatively remorseless.
As PZ has said already, Hamilton is an expert at driving in the 'grey zone'; not being dirty as such, but walking the line between hard and illegal driving. Moreover, he is obviously competitive, so the gloves are off in that regard.
Verstappen... Well he's already declared himself with THAT tweet, and what with the environment of Marko and Horner, I cannot imagine he will be able to rise above the histrionics, or de-escalate the tension, which is a shame because I think he could walk away with this title if he simply remained calm and rational, rather than resorting to petulance.
Overall, I suspect race threads are going to get locked more often this year. I just hope no-one gets hurt, whatever happens.
I think Hamilton's emotions got the better of him and lost himself there for a moment, instead of taking the "loss" and lift for a moment... As a competitive person myself I can totally imagine it. As a Max fan I can let that part go actually, but I'm galled because of his arrogance and outrage celebration. He f*cked up in the heat of the moment, but doesn't show any remorse and refuses to apologize.
And maybe even worse; he probably triggered an engine penalty later in the season because while Honda says the engine "may" be salvageable, it will be a huge gamble. The reliability may be damaged by the crash and cause a failure later on. Gambling on reliability issues or take a penalty for a new engine?... not an easy choice. (this is without taking the cost cap in consideration).
This race may have decided the championship already.
If Lewis thinks that it was a racing incident (as do a good amount of drivers, pundits, etc)… Why should he apologize?
I can understand some thinking that it was his fault and that’s valid, but if in his mind he didn’t do anything wrong and he had the corner… Is he supposed to apologize for it?
This isn’t like in Brazil when he clearly made a mistake and had a collision with Albon (for which he apologized) and is not that different than recently with the Norris and Perez situation in which Norris still thinks that he didn’t do anything wrong… Is Norris supposed to apologize afterwards?
A big part of the rage by the Max fan base seems to be around Hamilton celebrating the win… Why wouldn’t he?… I’m pretty sure that if the roles were reversed and Max would have been the one in the inside and Lewis the one in the barriers, Max wouldn’t have apologized either if he didn’t think he had done anything wrong, nor would he have avoided any celebrations.
They are not the same and the text does not say that he must be significantly ahead (?)
It says "signifikanten Überhang" which translates to "significant overlap". Ahead would be "signifikant vorne" or similar.
Now I’ve had a better look at it and both are different, you’re right. The original english version makes sense, it says “overlap”. The german translation is not correct. „Überhang“ would mean that something is ahead of some other thing. The right translation would have been “Überschneidung“ for example.
Yea, i just tend to correct anything to the right meaning without really thinking about, so in my mind i fixed "Überhang" to the correct meaning in the context of the image ... i believe their entire translation or recollection could be a bit off as i've written a few posts up.
Last edited by RZS10 on 19 Jul 2021, 21:58, edited 2 times in total.
In this case, the attacker’s front axle is ahead of the defender’s rear axle and the two cars are approximately halfway alongside. Both drivers have a reasonable claim to the apex. If contact occurs, blame will have to be shared. It is in this zone that racing incidents can occur. Ayrton Senna was famous for creating situations just like this, as both attacker and defender, where the other driver would have to decide whether or not to yield to avoid a collision.
In case Hamilton would have more then half of a car (which he was just before going into the apex) then the apex was for Hamilton
In this case, the attacker is definitely more than halfway past the defender at the apex. The attacker has the right to the racing line. A collision at the apex is entirely the fault of the defender.
What needs to be checked/discussed is whether or not the tire wall could be mover back or introduce some Paul ricard like stripes to slow the car down in this corner as it is a corner where you can overtake but with little room in case of a mistake
Last edited by fenix4life on 19 Jul 2021, 22:04, edited 1 time in total.
I don’t buy the being offended at the celebration part.
Especially how we celebrate quotes from Grand Prix, and romanticize greats of the past for being ruthless in their pursuit of victory, and applaud Max for having many of the same attributes.
How many times have we heard Max compared to a young Senna?
Lewis won at his home track, in front of the first full grand stands since 2019… he’s going to be amped.
It’s not an either or thing and it’s just a “no offense, but” type of statement.
Max went to the hospital for precautionary reasons, because Silverstone doesn’t have a CT scanner like other tracks. 51g’s is a hard impact for sure, but NASCAR and Indy Car routinely have those. It’s not unheard of or especially rare. He walked away under his own power and that’s what was relayed to Lewis when Lewis asked.
No amount of Horner / Marko spin changes those facts.
Max’s car being wrecked isn’t Lewis problem. Much as it would be the same if roles were reversed.
As someone here pointed out, He was in Coventry and the tweet was tagged as Silverstone
Sounds like a proxy
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.
People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.
Interesting that this is missing in most discussions. Just because you may not be found at fault for an incident doesn't mean you will not come out on the loosing end of the incident. Knowing when to push and when to attack will be learned over time. I believe if Max would have just backed out of it he would have passed in the next laps anyway. The Red Bull just seems too strong against Mercedes at the moment.
I don’t agree. When a car has 6kph advantage over you in a straight line it’s going to be almost impossible to get past it. Verstappen couldn’t let Hamilton past he just couldn’t if he wanted to win. Remember also if that happens he has a Mercedes directly in front and another only 2 cars behind he would have been pincered in the pit stops.
Verstappen couldn’t let Hamilton past he just couldn’t if he wanted to win. Remember also if that happens he has a Mercedes directly in front and another only 2 cars behind he would have been pincered in the pit stops.
Depends whether you want to be WC or just win a race.
Sometimes it's better as a WC leader to let someone pass and go for the big victory. (I know easier said then done)
