2021 British Grand Prix - Silverstone, July 16 - 18

[i70q7m7ghw]

Here are some comments from Masi thats put to bed the the line of thought some were using yesterday.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/masi- ... s/6633632/

Masi stressed that the stewards could not take into account the fact that Verstappen had retired and Hamilton had continued, and any potential impact on the title battle.

"I think one of the big parts that's been a mainstay for many, many years, and this came through discussions prior to my time between all of the teams, the FIA and F1, and the team principals were all quite adamant, is that you should not consider the consequences in an incident," Masi said.

"So when they judge an incident they judge the incident itself, and the merits of the incident, not what happens afterwards as a consequence. And that's been something that the stewards have done for many years.

"And have been advised to do from top down. I'm talking team involvement, and so forth. So that's the way that the stewards judge it, because start taking consequences into account, there's so many variables, rather than judging the incident itself on its merits."

Red Bull's management has made it clear that it feels Hamilton got away lightly, with Helmut Marko calling for Hamilton to be suspended for a race.

Asked about the team's complaints that the punishment wasn't harsh enough, Masi said: "I think if you look at it on that basis you'll never find a penalty that will address an imbalance like that.

"If you look at it in that particular circumstance, that is why going back a few years the teams, or team principals made a clear distinction that they didn't want consequences taken into account, they wanted it based on the incident itself.

"I completely understand that perspective and I think that is a general held view across all stewarding, to not look at consequences for that purpose."

Masi says he sees no need for the stewards to explain their decisions to the public in detail.

I think that pretty much puts the likes of Horner & Marko back in their respective boxes. I'm not really a fan of Masi, but he's talking aboslute sense here, this is exactly how the stewarding has always been done, and how it should continue. They just need to work on the consistency a bit more!

[mwillems]

I think he was trying to link to the first result.

Nice, thanks. I had some random meme as my first result!

I completely agree with Karun here, and having seen this piece of footage now, you can see just how aggressive Max was, he saw Lewis, backed out, changed his mind sand decided to squeeze his loaded front wing in a 300kph corner. What a stupid thing to do for himself. When a front his a rear, it's the rear hit car that usually loses out *Unless your name is Vettel and you drive a Ferrari). He had several more corners to take control.

[Stormblessed]

By the way, as a complete aside, I think this is a lovely gesture and one which deserves posting about on here. Sebastian Vettel helped clean the grandstands after the fans had left last night. Showing his commitment to environmental issues

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/67642 ... pointment/

Such a lovely gesture! He has become such a likeable character from his 2010-13 seasons.

[ringo]

I think he was trying to link to the first result.

Nice, thanks. I had some random meme as my first result!

I completely agree with Karun here, and having seen this piece of footage now, you can see just how aggressive Max was, he saw Lewis, backed out, changed his mind sand decided to squeeze his loaded front wing in a 300kph corner. What a stupid thing to do for himself. When a front his a rear, it's the rear hit car that usually loses out *Unless your name is Vettel and you drive a Ferrari). He had several more corners to take control.

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.

[subcritical71]

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.

Interesting that this is missing in most discussions. Just because you may not be found at fault for an incident doesn't mean you will not come out on the loosing end of the incident. Knowing when to push and when to attack will be learned over time. I believe if Max would have just backed out of it he would have passed in the next laps anyway. The Red Bull just seems too strong against Mercedes at the moment.

[Incognito]

Driver61


Pretty definitive. I view Driver61 as pretty neutral as well as an expert driver so I think his take is pretty spot on (and the Stewards' view, as they have more data available than is in the public domain).

[Mogster]

I think he was trying to link to the first result.

Nice, thanks. I had some random meme as my first result!

I completely agree with Karun here, and having seen this piece of footage now, you can see just how aggressive Max was, he saw Lewis, backed out, changed his mind sand decided to squeeze his loaded front wing in a 300kph corner. What a stupid thing to do for himself. When a front his a rear, it's the rear hit car that usually loses out *Unless your name is Vettel and you drive a Ferrari). He had several more corners to take control.

A good explanation. The whole missed the apex discussion becomes moot when the incident happened before. We’ll never know if Lewis could have made the apex as the collision changes his steering angle.

So is Max weaving on the old pit straight OK? That’s one of the obvious difference’s between the overtake on Chaz and Max. Chaz chooses to stay wide forcing Hamilton to take the tighter line but he’s not weaving like a mad man, he chooses to stay wide and sticks to it, even using the Copse run off as Max could have done.

I watch the Max and Lewis incident and I’m forced to consider that if the damage had fallen the other way, so Max continues and Hamilton’s steering was broken say, then would Max have received a penalty? If so why not?

[HPD]

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes.

So why did he receive a penalty?

[dans79]

The Red Bull just seems too strong against Mercedes at the moment.

I'm not so sure about that, Sergio had a really hard time overtaking cars thats he should have breezed past. Not to mention since he started from the pitlane, his car was most likely optimized specifically for overtaking.

[dtro]

Ultimately when someone destroys your race through an error and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really. [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.
Sir Hamilton French GP 2018

[dans79]

Ultimately when someone destroys your race through an error and it's only kind-of a tap on the hand really. [He's] just allowed to come back and still finish ahead of the person that they took out, it doesn't weigh up.
Sir Hamilton French GP 2018

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

[ringo]

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes.

So why did he receive a penalty?

Because he was involved in a collision that ended another driver's race.
As much as Masi wants to prentend the outcome has nothing to do with it.. it does.
If Max kept his wheel on and spun around i can bet there would have been no penalties.
Hamilton did nothing wrong. You are free to drive on any part of the track you wish provide you obey the rules. There is no rule about touching apex. There are rules about blocking and forcing a driver off track and causing a collission. I dont think Hamilton cause the collision if he didnt steer or brake into Max.
The penalty was based solely on Max not being able to continue.

But i am not talking about the incident any more. Its minor in the grand scheme of the championship.

7 points in it and 4 in the WCC. Mercedes have a chance to win it on grit.
Lewis worked out in his head Max's weakness. He will continue to exploit it.

They will come together again and Max will lose out again. Hamilton knows how to survive.

If Hamilton had the 30 point lead. He will yeild or simply defend properly. Only if it were the last race of the season will Lewis drive like Max.

[seense]

This was already covered several pages ago. He was referring to his teammate who got rear-ended by a driver that had a big lockup. It's in no way similar to what happened yesterday.

It's not about whether both incidents are similar or not. It's about the relation between imposed punishment vs the eventual punishment. Eventually there was no punishment for the drivers found guilty after crossing the line in both incidents.

[dans79]

Eventually there was no punishment for the drivers found guilty after crossing the line in both incidents.

As has already been stated by the race director, outcomes/consequences (real or potential) are not to be considered when deciding on the punishment for a given incident.

[mwillems]

Nice, thanks. I had some random meme as my first result!

I completely agree with Karun here, and having seen this piece of footage now, you can see just how aggressive Max was, he saw Lewis, backed out, changed his mind sand decided to squeeze his loaded front wing in a 300kph corner. What a stupid thing to do for himself. When a front his a rear, it's the rear hit car that usually loses out *Unless your name is Vettel and you drive a Ferrari). He had several more corners to take control.

People are saying this narrativd that Lewis made a "mistake" again. Lewis did not make any mistakes. He knew exactly where he eas placing his car to make that corner. The car would have been around that corner safely and at a lower speed than normal. In fact i dont think there was any significant understeer either. Lewis intent was simply to occupy the space while turning to keep Max off the apex forcing him to take a wider line. It was not a wreckless dive bomb into a closing gap.
Max is more at fault for playing a game he had no business playing with his pointd advantage. And turn in hard like a mad man, knoeing full well LH44 was occupying the inside of the track.
I am glad it is over and think the discussion should shift. I always maintained that Lewis has mind games in his arsenal. He will continue to present Max with tough decisions to make.. go for it or back out.
When Lewis takes back the lead of the championship he will go back to being conservative and protecting his points.
This is just something Max has never experienced. He will do well to learn game theory.

haha I'm familiar with game theory and zero sum situations, I don't think he needs it to understand the risks involved, I think you just wanted to ssy game theory in a post!

But I still think that it is a corner where neither car can be aggressive, there isn't room for it. If Lewis was trying to squeeze in that corner then I think he carries some fault, if he misjudges his grip and can't take the apex he carries fault.

Max turned in hard and carries some fault.

I think what we see is two guys being aggressive and taking a risk they didn't need to. Like I say, racing gods.