Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[MMMMMMMM]

Basically, these are the numbers Amus says (from his internal sources)

Ferrari_____________790 hp
Mercedes___________780 hp
Honda Spec-3_______750 hp
Renault Spec-C______730 hp
Honda Spec-2_______715 hp
Renault Spec-B______710 hp

Interesting

AMuS used to be a reasonable source, can you share the link please ?

From official numbers we know too little, but the little we know is that Renault Spec-A was officially at "More than 950hp" and that right from the horses mouth: https://www.renaultsport.com/-formula-1-car-.html

950hp bar 163hp is 787hp for the ICE alone. That's a starting point.

Honda doesn't share any official numbers, but I would be surprised If they haven't yet surpassed the 800hp mark for the ICE alone.

[lio007]

Basically, these are the numbers Amus says (from his internal sources)

Ferrari_____________790 hp
Mercedes___________780 hp
Honda Spec-3_______750 hp
Renault Spec-C______730 hp
Honda Spec-2_______715 hp
Renault Spec-B______710 hp

Interesting

AMuS used to be a reasonable source, can you share the link please ?

From official numbers we know too little, but the little we know is that Renault Spec-A was officially at "More than 950hp" and that right from the horses mouth: https://www.renaultsport.com/-formula-1-car-.html

950hp bar 163hp is 787hp for the ICE alone. That's a starting point.

Honda doesn't share any official numbers, but I would be surprised If they haven't yet surpassed the 800hp mark for the ICE alone.

Look at this:
viewtopic.php?p=792264#p792264

[Karim28]

Honda with 750 hp in Austin?

Accordingly, Ferrari is in the qualifier with 790 hp from the burner at the top. Mercedes are missing in qualifying trim around 10 hp. Under racing conditions, the two engines are at eye level, except in the moments when Ferrari turns on his afterburner. Renault and Honda still lag behind dramatically. So should the Spec-C version of the Renault V6 in qualifying only come to 730 hp. She only uses Red Bull so far.The B version will be granted only 710 hp.Honda should already be ahead with 715 hp.

While Renault has already shot his powder, Honda will upgrade again. In Austin, the time has come. Extensive test-bench runs over distances of 7,000 kilometers take time. From Honda sources, we hear that the Spec-3 engine is supposed to scratch the 750 horsepower limit.

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -mercedes/

To clarify something that wasn't quoted here
The numbers is without the MGU-K extracted powerhorses (Maximized according to the regulations 163 hp) and without the power from MGU-H either
So the numbers are set for the ICE only I think
We all know that Honda may be suffers from not full-charging in the battery and that may make the difference

[Snorked]

Sounds like a load of rubbish. According to them and their gps data last year, the Honda PU had 880 bhp at the final race of the season, so this year's ICE went backwards?

- 2017 - 717 bhp
- 2018 - 715 bhp, inc spec 2's 27 bhp

[saviour stivala]

Sounds like a load of rubbish. According to them and their gps data last year, the Honda PU had 880 bhp at the final race of the season, so this year's ICE went backwards?

- 2017 - 717 bhp
- 2018 - 715 bhp, inc spec 2's 27 bhp

Their GPS data of last year they where qouting Honda power unit maximum output, what they are qouting now is internal combustion engine maximum output. Also, the internal combustion engine maximum output they are qouting now is the power under maximum fuel flow rate with turbocharger wastegates closed (the most effecient way/output).
With wastegates open (the least efficient way/power), the output/power can be boosted by about 50hp.

[saviour stivala]

These latest horsepower output quoted cannot but be as near as could be. The problem is all four power units outputs more power than is being quoted because at specific points during a lap they are all running with wastegates open (free load mode) the ones that can afford to use this mode the most or for longer have the advantage.

[63l8qrrfy6]

They are relative numbers, not absolute values..

[saviour stivala]

If one goes by what one power unit manufacturer boss having been quoted as having said, namely that their power unit have now approached the 1000 BHP output, it means that sort of power output is the maximum they can now extract out of their power unit, which also means that the 1.6l turbo hybrid power output has reached 625bhp/l @ a maximum fuel flow rate of 100kg/h at 10500rpm, it also means that the ICE part of the power unit output has reached 839 bhp or 524 bhp/l, still at 100kg/h fuel flow rate at 10500 rpm.

[Walkman]

These numbers make sense if they are kW at full beans in Q3.

Ferrari: 790kW -> 1058hp
Mercedes: 780kW -> 1045hp
Honda (3): 750kW -> 1005hp
Renault (C): 730kW -> 978hp
Honda (2): 715kW -> 958hp
Renault (B): 710kW -> 951hp

It actually coincides with what Renault has reported at the beginning of the season (950+hp). What Mercedes reported long ago (1000+hp). But also the reported gains (Renault reported 27hp between B and C).

[HPD]

These numbers make sense if they are kW at full beans in Q3.

That's right, the publication refers to quali or Q3.

[godlameroso]

What I want to know is if the concept is simply being refined, or are they still trying out new things? I think a lot of the reason Honda was so open was due to them trying new things so often that they never got attached to a particular method/design.

Much like they so willingly display the 2017 power unit due to it not having much to do with the 2018 version.

I wonder if things are quiet because the concept is now essentially locked in and the gains come from fuel and refinement of the power unit and it's processes. That if there are hardware changes they are guided by what the fuel is doing moreso than how the engine is breathing. Or perhaps they're more secretive due to Red Bull, wouldn't be a bad move to not prematurely gloat.

[Dr. Acula]

If one goes by what one power unit manufacturer boss having been quoted as having said, namely that their power unit have now approached the 1000 BHP output, it means that sort of power output is the maximum they can now extract out of their power unit, which also means that the 1.6l turbo hybrid power output has reached 625bhp/l @ a maximum fuel flow rate of 100kg/h at 10500rpm, it also means that the ICE part of the power unit output has reached 839 bhp or 524 bhp/l, still at 100kg/h fuel flow rate at 10500 rpm.

I wouldn't give to much credit to what team principals say. They talk a lot of rubbish in the media as the day goes along.
I know about the "1000hp" claim but they never made it clear how exactly they meant it.
Wasn't this the same manufacturer which claimed at the end of last year, that they have surpassed 50% thermal efficiency of the PU on dyno runs?
Well there's already a problem, 50% thermal efficiency, isn't even near 1000hp. So one of the two statements must be wrong. Thing is though, 1000hp is just a stupid number where we have no clue how they got to it. Surpassing 50% efficiency is actually a technical achievment and means really the power which is send to the gearbox.
50% would mean somewhere in the 800-900hp region with the support of the MGU-K because they talked about the efficiency of the whole PU. The highest efficency is certainly reached in a normal race mode. Not in Quali mode. The article stated, that the difference between race and quali mode for the ICE can be up to 40hp because of the reduced pumping loses.
Well. 900-160+40=780hp.
So the numbers AMuS stated are perfectly reasonable for the ICE in Quali mode.

So, how they get the 1000hp number you may ask. Well, that's simple, combine all the possible outputs of the ICE and the MGU-K and the MGU-H and you quite certainly get a number higher than 1000hp. So everybody goes "Wow, so much power!", only problem is though, that's not the power send to the gearbox. That's the power the PU can put out as a System.

[Phil]

This numbers look suspect,merc say thy are loosing three tenth to Ferrari in the straight, teams are suppose to be producing more than 1000 bhp , that's 860 if u take electric part, earlier it was said Honda lose only 0.3 tenth to merc . The numbers coming from a German site are biased toward Mercedes,they lose more just a tenth to Ferrari.

Before slagging off a "German site" supposedly favoring Mercedes, perhaps one should try to understand what was written first because evidently, nothing in your reply is remotely close to what that article was about?

The article was taking the data from sources inside teams. All teams do GPS tracking and analyze their competitors to draw conclusions about what others are doing and extracting. Obviously, when numbers are published, even when through an inside source, some numbers are sometimes portrayed better than they are. If the real numbers get out, it will look bad on some of them for severely underperforming. In that sense, there's a case to be made that Renault (Abiteboul) has been attempting to make it seem they are still ahead of Honda, however it seems that may not be true. Also, even if you have the most exact GPS figures, there is still some algorithm behind it. Conclusions are drawn about drag levels that then lead to an analysis of the acceleration data and that's how they end up with these HP figures. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that these numbers aren't exact and as stated above, some number fudging is going on to make their own numbers appear better. But in the end, it's something that's better than nothing.

The numbers that are stated in that AMuS article does not disclose from which source those numbers are. They are just the numbers from the ICU, without the MGU-K and MGU-H.

[Walkman]

The numbers that are stated in that AMuS article does not disclose from which source those numbers are. They are just the numbers from the ICU, without the MGU-K and MGU-H.

It's pretty obvious it's coming from Honda since they have the first power prediction for Honda's Spec-3 expected for Austin.

[Sieper]

Indeed, don't know if it is coming from Honda but if is are measured GPS data how can they say Honda spec3 750 HP as the spec 3 has not driven a cm in Monza. So if all values have indeed been measured (based on GPS) and estimated based on wing settings etc. then still the Honda number (for spec 3) can never have been measured in that way.