2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[Matt2725]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

Usually you post very insightful comments on a range of subjects, but this is seriously quite revisionist of you. If that was the case, why were Ferrari not able to comfortably beat them when their PU was quite obviously on par if not more powerful?

[Shrieker]

I was right about this team. Just 12 years too early

Might as well say I was ahead of my time

[Sevach]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

And people said these regulations were too presprictive...

[SiLo]

I was right about this team. Just 12 years too early

Might as well say I was ahead of my time

A broken clock... This attempt at savant-ism is an incredible stretch!

[dialtone]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

Usually you post very insightful comments on a range of subjects, but this is seriously quite revisionist of you. If that was the case, why were Ferrari not able to comfortably beat them when their PU was quite obviously on par if not more powerful?

That was only in 2019 and because the car had no downforce and was eating tires.

2017 and 2018 were both attempts with decent but inferior engine and one with more, other with less, wing than Mercedes. Both times they lost which lead to even less wing in 2019 which caused the car to eat tires for breakfast, in the hope they could bridge the engine gap. 2020 had a ton of downforce but the engine advantage was gone.

There is nothing revisionist about Mercedes having the best engine from 2014 till 2021. It’s a fact shown in races like Brazil 2021. It wasn’t even close, easily 20-30bhp advantage on average and 80+ in the early years.

[JordanMugen]

Of course the technical team is to blame, Toto is not an engineer.

As the team principal, Toto is the one who sets up the technical team, no?

Was Toto responsible for "firing" Elliot who delivered the race winning W13 and bringing Allison back to the technical director position, for example?

[venkyhere]

Of course the technical team is to blame, Toto is not an engineer.

As the team principal, Toto is the one who sets up the technical team, no?

Was Toto responsible for "firing" Elliot who delivered the race winning W13 and bringing Allison back to the technical director position, for example?

I mentioned the same earlier.

Why all this emotional drama ? Not every statement to media needs to be a punchline. Tired of Toto's constant 'throwing under the bus' treatment of his staff. Who recruited them ? He did. Stop talking to the media and get on with the solution. It all starts with 'we are human afterall', and accept the "failure" (5th fastest team isn't a total disaster, where Alpine are at, is) with humility. Its in situations like this, someone with Kimi's emotional disposition would be an asset to the team. Stop doing the 'big talk' like 'we are close' , 'finally we have solved it' , 'this time we are right' - behave like a midfield team for the media activities and the pressure will lift automatically.

I am only talking about washing dirty linen in public. Just to keep up the carefully cultivated media image of being a 'straight talker', Toto is demeaning his team in public by such statements to the media , radio-ing during the race to his drivers "we know the car is ---" etc. It tells me he doesn't care for their mental state, only that of his drivers'. I've not seen another TP doing this.

[mstar]

Blaming Lewis doesnt make any sense. If theres someone who has little fault its the drivers. Lewis is not comfortable with the car and George takes risks which can put him ahead at the moment but also has higher chance to shunt the car. Car needs to improve, Lewis would be able to drive more at the limit and Russell not take as many risks.

Toto did very well to put blame on himself rather than the team, that would have created serious instability. Laurent Rossi in 2023 made that mistake and it didnt end well.

One reason why Lewis is leaving to Ferrari is that he and Merc had their disagreements about consept which way to go, Lewis said he knows what the car needs. Well now the car is made with listening Lewis, example the cockpit is further. Talk about car developement, Lewis's has had his time in the spotlight taking big role in public and it doesn't look so good.

But yeah the drivers are not the problem.

That is true apparently loic serra was against the car concept from Mike elliot and continued direction. And only loic stood up for Lewis on they need to change the concept earlier and listening to Lewis's comments on the car. Loic and Lewis have always been quite close. No surprise both off to Ferrari.

[Watto]

Feels like some of the same old issues for Merc of the lat few years. The operating window seems s very narrow.

[Waz]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

That's some of the biggest revisionist bullshit I've read in a long time

I have only recently become a member here, but I have been reading the boards a long time, and distinctly remember the view that Vanja expresses being held quite widely from 2014 to 2021. So it's definitely not revisionist at all. You could probably trawl through old race threads from the time and find that Mercedes very often had the largest rear wing of the front runners.

Mercedes had highly complex aero that definitely wouldn't have been the most efficient. And they didn't need to be, because they had enough power to make sure they also had enough downforce without having to compromise.

Other teams like Red Bull and McLaren were focused on efficient aero during the time because of the power deficit they had. All of that knowledge pays dividends when the engines started equalising.

Mercedes has kept operating that same way, but now it isn't working.

[F1Krof]

It's funny reading Wolff's "we have a physics problem, in the past we always understood the car and now we don't" and not laugh while remembering 2017/18 seasons and constant moaning about having a "diva"

Allison's statement from around preseason testing was very telling, going along the lines of "before we could do an upgrade and it always adds performance (downforce) and now with these cars we can't do it like that" It just confirms their aero development was basically "add winglets, strakes, wing level etc and it will go faster" because of PU supremacy. Even in 2021 this still held true.

It does not seem they bothered too much with checking how the car would behave in (as many as needed) challenging conditions on track, they could just take away or add a bit of wing front or rear to balance the car and just went for it... This level of incompetence is shocking, honestly. To think this team secured 8 consecutive WCCs...

I think you’re vastly oversimplifying the reasons behind their past success and comparing the two regulation sets is like comparing apples to oranges.

Also think there’s a bit of revisionist history going on regarding the PU in 2021.

Yes totally. And funny when they mention the PU supremacy I never hear about 2019's Ferrari Engine who Merc still beat them.

I get that people tend to hate on Mercedes for whatever reason, but putting the merit to solely the engine is completely ridiculous.

[maygun]

Surprisingly, Toto is fully transparent that he wants Max this much. The moment Max says I am leaving, he will sign him. I wonder if Max comes to Merc now and get Pole, Wins what would be the narrative about the technical team's of Mercedes

[JordanMugen]

Yes totally. And funny when they mention the PU supremacy I never hear about 2019's Ferrari Engine who Merc still beat them.

I get that people tend to hate on Mercedes for whatever reason, but putting the merit to solely the engine is completely ridiculous.

If the engine differences were no big deal, why did Mercedes GP allegedly veto Red Bull Racing's ex-Lotus customer Mercedes PU supply in 2016?

Instead the supply was allocated to Manor Racing, who went bankrupt, instead of Red Bull Racing who would pay Mercedes HPP in full and on time under the usual financial terms of a power unit lease, generating income for Mercedes HPP (unlike the loss taken on the insolvent Manor Racing).

With this Manor arrangement, Mercedes HPP would have lost quite some tens of millions of GBP of income, compared to a Red Bull Racing supply deal.

Surprisingly, Toto is fully transparent that he wants Max this much. The moment Max says I am leaving, he will sign him. I wonder if Max comes to Merc now and get Pole, Wins what would be the narrative about the technical team's of Mercedes

By supplying Red Bull-Mercedes, Verstappen could already be a Mercedes brand ambassador for many years already (just as Verstappen does PR for Aston Martin, Honda and now Ford), this is another misstep from the decision not to allocate customer power units to Red Bull Racing from 2016 onwards.

Mercedes lost the opportunity to make Verstappen a "Mercedes man" as a Red Bull-Mercedes driver and Mercedes-Benz brand ambassador

[Vanja #66]

I think you’re vastly oversimplifying the reasons behind their past success and comparing the two regulation sets is like comparing apples to oranges.

How so? It's the 3rd year of regulations, a team of Mercedes' recent history absolutely must have figured out their aero by now. Russell was full 50 seconds behind Sainz when the accident happened. Is it another case of "wrong cooling choice" like Bahrain?

Remember 2009, when McLaren and Ferrari were abysmal with new regulations after 2 years of very competitive racing between them? They didn't go further back in 2010, both teams got straight back to the top with multiple wins and Championship fight all the way to the final race, like 2009 never happened and that's what Mercedes must be achieving right now.

That's some of the biggest revisionist bullshit I've read in a long time

Do enlighten us

Usually you post very insightful comments on a range of subjects, but this is seriously quite revisionist of you. If that was the case, why were Ferrari not able to comfortably beat them when their PU was quite obviously on par if not more powerful?

They did beat them easily in 2019 for a few races when they were actually ahead on PU, until Toto and Mercedes pulled all their political might to make sure this doesn't last. And Binotto crumbled like a cookie with FIA. Heck, they even beat Mercedes a few times in 17 and 18 without PU parity.

[Luscion]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/2024/03/ ... struggles/

“Because there are sessions throughout the weekend and also the last two ones where we are absolutely right up there in terms of performance. And then we lose it again.

“P3 within tenths of everybody else. Quali? Seven. And then race pace was never there this weekend.

“You could see that McLaren and Ferrari were going seven, eight-tenths quicker on Friday already and we had no answer to that.”