Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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I'll have to recheck the tape on that one (it's at my mothers house...I'll be going there on the second weekend of october)...though as I remember they didn't do the champagne ceremony!
In regards to Ralfs crash at Indy I really cant see Schumacher doing anything wrong or something that I would have liked him to do different.
In my view Schumacher did what was best for both his brother himself and everybody else.
I saw a clip of Senna recently I think it was at spa where somebody has a huge crash infront him. Senna immidiately pulls over and gets out of his car and runs to the wrecked car. Very human and very brave but incredibly stupid.
Of course every accident/situation is different but Sennas actions could easily have made the situation even worse.
Generally speaking its the marshalls that have the training and equipment and really should handle the situation without interference from drivers.
Trained firefighters hesitated to rescue Ronnie Peterson from burning car and if James Hunt didn't act "incredibly stupid" Ronnie would burn to death in his car.
If Graham Hill didn't pull over and turn over Jackie Stewart's car with dripping fuel and rescued him as Jackie was trapped underneath... there would be no Jackie.
Marshals are trained (I was one of them for a decade) but they are all (except firefighters) volunteers, often green and unprepared and sometimes presence of another driver can be crucial when it matters advice and dealing with situation.
If all such actions would be described as "incredibly stupid" than any form of heroism would take such characterization.
I was of course speaking of the modern era where both the marshalls and their equipment is at another level than those of the Hunt era.
I cant comment on the situation you mentioned since I havent seen them or know something about them. But I dont think Schumacher is a trained paramedic or medical doctor or carries the special equipment the marshalls has at their disposal in his Ferrari or has any training on how to use that equipment.
You saw what happened at Interlagos when Alonso ignored the yellow flag and that is one of the reasons why you shouldnt park your car on a racing circuit. You may endanger yourself, the marshalls, your fellow drivers and most likely are you only going to disturb the marshalls at the scene of the event that are doing everything they can to help the people involved in the accident.
I saw a documentary on the preperations for the Malaysian GP at Sepang and the marshalls might be volunteers but they were not " green and unprepared ". They actually trained alot on different scenarios and even had mockups of an F1 car.
I simply cant see what Schumacher could have done to help his brother ?
Im not saying Senna was an wannabe hero but there are to sides on every coin. Did Senna actually accomplish anything or did he only endanger himself and the people around him ?
Senna is merely an exampel but he did come under criticism during his career for doing irrational things like stealing/borrowing a medical car(I think it was) and driving out on track in order to check out a driver that had a large accident that caused the session to be stopped.
Heroic and very humanly of him but not necessarily the right or the most effective way to handle the situation.
First off, I believe we can never be too safe, and any injury, or death is tragically unacceptable. That being said, this is about racing, where drivers and teams push themselves and their equipment in competition. I can never personally accept any death, but if you have racing, deaths will occur. The only thing we can do is try to address and solve safety issues. The only sure-fire way to eliminate racing deaths is to stop racing.
Everything in life is balanced against risk. Get out of bed? A risk.. stay in bed, another risk. Drive a car or take the train? Risk management, each can fail, leading to tragedy.
Many years ago a smart person told me the only safe race car was a tank. And that's 99% true. Surround yourself with armour plate, lots of tough mass. But even people die occasionally in tanks.
If we started from the perspective of building as safe as possible, the vehicle and circuit would probably be one huge airbag, where the drivers and vehicles circulate at 5 kmh.
But it appears the trend is to accept what we curently have, and as safety issues are uncovered, to address them, and alter the regulations, with risk versus performance in mind. And always, hopefully, the changes will diminish the risk.
And maybe that's the keyword... "diminish". To hope for "eliminate" is unrealistic as long as we have competition.
We have come a long way from years in the past, where the driver mortality rate was unacceptably high, where many died each year, where tragedy followed on a continual basis. Now, as each death occurs there is a general hue and cry, an outpouring of anguish and questions. That's a good thing, because no death should go unanswered, and without serious contemplation. I don't believe anyone in the racing industry doesn't take safety seriously. I don't believe anyone is willing to balance the risk in favor of competition against driver safety. It's just that as human beings, some accept the risk easier than others. Personally, I have issues with IRL, where open wheel cars, by the nature of the rules, run wheel to wheel, side by side, at very high speed. I don't like that, at all. To me, the odds are bad. And yes, there have been deaths in IRL as a direct result of cars touching wheels, and one car being launched, to find the wall or fence with disastrous results. Take for example what happened to Ryan Briscoe this last weekend, he somehow survived a very scary and bad incident. It was bad luck and the rules that put him into such a life-threating incident, and it was the rules and good luck that somehow saved his life. I have no answers, just joy that he survived.
As far as any driver stopping on the course and getting out to assist in an attempted rescue, I don't like it. It places at least one more person in jeapordy. But drivers are human beings, and it's hard just to drive by when someone you know may be in jeapordy of serious injury or death. For most of us, the impulse is to try to help. That's why we have all those wonderful track marshalls and doctors and safety experts. They are the ones trained to deal with on-track crisis, and one spin off is to hopefully keep a driver from the impules of joining the fray and maybe making the situation worse. But it's a weird paradox, individual heroism and courage is applauded, and usually rewarded. Heck, Mike Hailwood is remembered in Formula One for saving the life of Clay Regazzoni in the 1973 South African GP. I have no easy answer for all this, I just hope the drivers stay in their cars.
To me, motor racing is a wonderful and glorious sport, truly fantastic in all it's wonder. But there are always two sides to everything. To have such a wonderful thing as motor racing, there will always be risk. Unless we as individuals and a society decide that any death is totally unacceptable and ban motorsport, we will always have the sad, but occasional death.
When I mentioned green and unprepared marshals I was thinking on difference between training and real situation when one is forced to act under stress and when seconds make a difference between life and death. All marshals take courses, have trainings, talk to drivers etc. but training is one thing and finding your self with a couple of colleagues in an instant position where your actions can save, kill or disable a driver is another.
I’m not saying that Schumacher was supposed to stop because he could have done something to help in a sense of doing it better than medical crew – I only think that after 5 titels, and in the middle of the season where he was in the lead, in superior team and car, with everyone sure that he’ll easily win another title he could afford to pull over or even pit in and than check up on his brother.
It would be absolutely human thing to do, if you’ve even faced life and death situations and lost someone dear than you get the notion about what is really important in life and that is why I don’t get how only possible 10 points could kept him passing by. Ralf was far from being ok and he nearly faced paralysis. Schumacher is not M.D. but holding hand or talking to Ralf would certainly do him good rather to watch Ferrari with No.1 passing on and on… I’m talking about support, kindness, compassion… not medical stuff.
Alonso ignored yellow flag? Are you talking about race where he got injured after hitting a wheel? Perhaps I’m wrong, but term “ignoring yellow flag” is used to describe driver who overtakes under yellow flag, right?
Senna stealing/borrowing a medical car and driving on track, in F1?! Sorry but that is also unknown to me, really, and I’ve followed his career from beginning… Parking a car on track when the race is stopped after serious accidents is FIA procedure, nothing illegal and introduced in order not to cause further accidents or jamming of the track so that medical vehicles can pass.
Heroic acts aren’t always smartest and wisest but they did save so many people. Being calculated, following or waiting for expected procedure and personnel certainly insures that you won’t be questioned about your moves in the court of law but it can cost someone else’s life.
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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The Senna situation was in 1993 in Japan or SPA during a practice session, where he parked the car and ran to the crashed car (I can't remember who it was).
In 1994 after the Ratzenberger accident (can't pin point when...but the body was no longer there...don't know if a the end of tthe practice or while the track was being clean) he went in the medical car to the location of the accident.
Parking a car (leaving car) in order to go and save colleague driver is obvious... how else could it be done? Same thing was done by previously mentioned drivers like Mike Hailwood mentioned by Dave and James Hunt and Graham Hill I mentioned.
Those are already zones under yellow flag (or red for whole track) and since medical vehicles and tow vehicles will appear as soon as possible than parking a car near the place of accident by helping driver can't be considered as worse than having those giant tractors during yellow flag while the race goes on. We see that on almost every race (and it scares me).
That is not the same thing as it would be parking a car under local yellow flag without SC condition or without session stopped (red flag).
Going in somewhere in medical car after the event and stealing medical car and driving it on track in the middle of the practice are completely different things.
Which one was it than?
Last edited by manchild on 20 Sep 2005, 15:12, edited 1 time in total.
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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manchild wrote:
Which one was it than?
I mentioned 2 diferent things...1 where he parked the car in 1993 to help the other driver.....and in 1994 the one where he went in the medical car after Roland was taken to hospital to look at the scene of the accident.
I had in mind Monstro's version and version described by Guest /FX.
Those are not identical tales dealing with same accident. That is why I asked which one was it than. Did Senna steal a medical car and drove it on track in the middle of session or was he riding in medical car after the session has been stopped?
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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He was driven in the medical (or pace) car.....after the session was stopped! He was sitting in the front on the passenger side and Gerhard Berger was in the back of the car. The driver was the FIA appointed driver.
I can only confirm if it was the medical car or pace car when I go to my mothers and go through the tapes.
Notice that he didn't steal the car he was driven to the crash location only after the body had left the circuit.
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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Now I read the guest's post....well Senna had 2 situations I recall...both of them I explained 2 or 3 posts back.
About the Malasian GP....didn't they say in the documentary that most of the marshals for the GP come from Portugal? From the ACDME (Associação de Comissários de Desportos Motorizados do Estoril)....basicly the professional marshals from Portugal. In 1999 the race marshalls were almost all from Portugal...and in the last couple of years the still send them to some races! Last year they were sent to China and this year some of them are also going to China! We might not have a race in F1 but if I'm not mistaken (at least thats what I was told) we're the 4th force of marshals....after British, Italian and Spanish marshals.
Thanks for confirming that Monstro, I was already going to post this...
What goes before and after sessions on track isn’t part of official procedure although there are certain rules like no vehicles are ever allowed to drive in opposite direction (not even in reverse).
If Senna went to see place of the accident after the red flag than it was his own choice with nothing to do with safety. I haven’t seen that but I’m sure that he didn’t steal or borrow medical van/truck and than drove on track…
Last edited by manchild on 20 Sep 2005, 15:38, edited 1 time in total.
Location: Covilhã, Portugal (and sometimes in Évora)
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For sure he wouldn't steal anything! He did have a brain and wasn't that stupid! He'd have received quite a heavy fine!
About what you said earlier about Schummy throughing his cap on the podium....here is a transcript of the press conference...at least the first question...he seems a little moved and without any will to celebrate! So I suspect he didn't throw the cap.
Q. Michael, is it possible to gain any satisfaction from a victory like this?
MS: There is no satisfaction at all for me. This win certainly should
make me satisfied, but for me too many things happened this weekend to
let me feel satisfied.
It doesn't prove anything but I'll check the tapes....though I don't remember it happening! I watched the race 5 months ago and looked for him smiling...jumping...and doing any kind of celebrations but I didn't see anything! Only a smile and claps when Nicola Larini received the trophey! Didn't see the cap...but could have missed it.
Last edited by Monstrobolaxa on 20 Sep 2005, 15:35, edited 1 time in total.
