Very sad news

[Scuderia_Russ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 257438.stm

[manchild]

Nothing to add...

How much time has passed since previous fatality in WRC?

[RH1300S]

Thankfully rare these days. Nonetheless very sad, perhaps sadder because fatal accidents are few and far between.

Must be tough on Markko too

[Scuderia_Russ]

I cannot tell you the last time there was a fatality in the WRC but after Solberg's massive shunt in Germany last year that tested every safety aspect of his Subaru to the limit, it was hoped the further updates were sufficient to withstand massive impact. There is only so much a car can take, even in 2005.

[RH1300S]

I cannot tell you the last time there was a fatality in the WRC but after Solberg's massive shunt in Germany last year that tested every safety aspect of his Subaru to the limit, it was hoped the further updates were sufficient to withstand massive impact. There is only so much a car can take, even in 2005.

Thanks to AutoSport website:

"The last similar incident was in the Rally of Australia in 1993 when co-driver Rodger Freeth was killed when the Subaru driven by the late New Zealander Possum Bourne rolled after a series of jumps.

In 1985 and 1986 respectively, Italian driver Attilio Bettega and leading Finn Henri Toivonen were killed in the Rally of Corsica"



I don't know the details of the accident (apart from hitting a tree), but I would speculate that the car took a side hit - that is where the occupants are still vulnerable. Despite Solberg comprehensively trashing his car, the safety systems clearly absorbed A LOT of energy and they both got out Ok.

[manchild]

... Henri Toivonen...

After Toivonen and his co-driver burned to death in car, famous "group B" was banned starting with 1987.

Lancia Delta S4 they drove had almost 700 hp and in 1985 during trials at Estoril they made lap time that would put them on 5th position on the grid for 1985 Portuguese F1 GP!!!

That car had 1.8l engine with one supercharger and one turbocharger in-line but safety measures regarding fuel tank and extinguisher system were catastrophic. FIA reg. only insisted on one fire extinguisher in car and that was all - no automated system and fuel tanks weren't made as nowadays.
http://www.thhe.dk/biler/Lancia_Delta_S4-Xray_1024.jpg

I wonder if this latest accident had something to do with that CC roof on Peugeot? Roll cage is there but is that “hard top” welded to “A” poles and rear end of the car?

Whatever caused it the history will be repeated – smartasses from FIA will now introduce new regulations that could have been introduced a decade ago and no one will face responsibility. For 2006 there’ll be new safety regulations that will last until someone else gets killed without being constantly improved as technology advances…

Forget technology – what about 2 millimeters thicker wall of roll cage pipes? Couldn’t that perhaps prevented this tragedy? Yes for sure but… but what is that FIA’s BUT all the time justified with - ignorance or greed?

[Monstrobolaxa]

It's still too early to have a definitive cause of the death...another 2 mm on the roll cage pipes might not have helped in this case! Like I said it's too early for us to start throwing ideas into the air.

What you said about FIA.....IMO it's always what people do put the blames on the organizing/technical regulatory association! The regulations are made in a way that should prevent 90% of fatalities (or higher)...more or less like in the Senna case if it hadn't been for the right front wheel to hit the helmet he would have lived....IMO FIA isn't to blame! I know it sad but people are there on their own risk they're not forced to do it!

If you put the blame on a non technical situation I might agree that the blame might be from the organizers due to the poor decision of have some rally stages pass by place so dangerous that I would be afraid to pass by in my road car at a normal speed!

IMO the person who will have to live with it for the rest of his life is MArko Martin....his co-pilot is dead because of a driver error!

(don't understand this as an arogant comment to throw at you...it's my opinion....and it's not just about you opinion! People tend to throw the blame always at other people)

[manchild]

I don't blame FIA for causing this I just say that many deaths under their jurisdiction could have been prevented if they haven't been so passive – always waiting for next tragedy in order to improve safety even though new regulations they introduce could have been implemented years or decades ago.

Just look at CF F1 chassis – materials and technology was there since Mclaren introduced it but it needed Gilles, DeAngelis, Donnley, Ratzenberger, Senna tragedies as triggers for FIA step-by-step safety improvements. Why step-by-step? Are they afraid of something? To me that is a sign of irresponsibility and hypocrisy.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Humm....well like Enzo Ferrari said:

"There is always something to learn. One never stops learning. Particulary when one is losing. When one loses, one knows what has to be done. When one wins, one is never sure."

In this case....you never know what the problem is untill you have it!

DeAngelis was killed by sufocation the car was with the wheels up and the fire fighters took 10 minutes to get to the location....not exactly a technical aspect.

Villeneuve's problem was based on a technical aspect caused by a mechanic forgetting to put a washer in the belt fixing! The bolt was simply pulled from the aluminum sheet. FIA in this case changed slightly the regulations concerning seat belt fixation.

Donnelley's crash well in this case they did nothing technically...they changed the circuit! It was state of the art technology if it had happened in a space frame construction probably Donnelly would have snapped his neck....and would be dead! He was very lucky in being thrown from the car!

You can't solve a problem if you don't have it or can't pin point what it is! It's a sad way to do business...

[manchild]

They can test things. Why wait to get result and learn from true tragedy?

DeAngelis... why didn't they provide enough firefighters? Sporting regulations and those involving track personnel are also FIA business. If one year someone dies because of lack of firefighters and next year that doesn’t happens because something simple as more personnel than they can’t say that it was “the great unknown”, beyond their reach or presumption. They have the power to say things like "2 mm is safe by current demands let us impose 5 mm just in case..."

Villeneuve was launched from the car but if CF was imposed.. who knows perhaps that crash would end differently (it was already used for years by some teams).

They did change tech. regulations after Donnely's crash like moving front axle 15O mm from the drivers feet (and than additional 150 mm after Senna's death) and few more things. That is my point; step-by-step approach as if someone would blame them for too much safety?

Without intention to go into further debate - a bit more concern for their primary job and much less politics is (by my opinion) what FIA should be doing.

[Monstrobolaxa]

I still have to say that in any case CF couldn't be imposed in 82 (the year of Villeneuve's death) because it's aplication in F1 was only 1 year old! Besides that at the time only 1 or 2 componies in the world had the facilities to build them....and fabricating for 12 or 13 teams would be impossible! Besides that it was simply too expensive at the time....only a fraction of the teams had the financial capability to use it!

Even nowadays teams don't have to use CF they simply opt to use it! They're not forced to use it!

In any case the probably Villeneuve would have died probably the washer wouldn't be in place anyway and would snap of the belt! Though not trown from the car probably would bang his head against the cockpit rim!

The changes imposed after Donnellys crash didn't alter properly the crash worthyness of the monocoque it just reduced the risk of feet/leg injury on head on colisions! The biggest problem with donnelly was the cockpit explosion....and they didn't change anything in this aspect! The moncoques were considered safe enough.

Well yes the FIA does test all the changes and are continuosly trying new stuff....but one change might be good in one area might be very bad in another! Look at the HANS device...though very good for the neck and preventing wipelash it doesn't prevent "brain" decelaration....this just to show that there isn't a solution for everything! The best idea would be cancel all kinds of motorsports....only this way we'd remove all the risk!

Concerning the track regulations tracks do have regulations during race weekends but for race sessions each track more or less has their own regs....at the moment if I'm not mistaken to test there has to be a helicopter present and at least one fire fighting truck....the number of marshalls isn't a regulated thing. (at least that's what I remember)

Well just went to FIA and found this:

16. Private testing at motor racing circuits (see also 9.3)
The FIA points out that it is not within its responsibility to regulate
private testing, the organisation of which has to be defi ned by
a contractual relationship between the user and the owner of
the circuit.
The FIA wishes however to clearly defi ne recommendations
concerning safety during private testing.
For any private testing involving very high speeds and intended
for vehicles which are later to take part in FIA competitions, it
is recommended that a set of minimum safety measures be
established with the owner of the circuit or his representative :
1) a medical service in conformity with article 9.3 of the present
Appendix H
2) installation of fi re-fi ghting marshals’ posts along the circuit with
adequate means of communication ensuring correct cover over
the entire track.
3) suffi cient fast vehicles for fi re-fi ghting.
4) the various teams are strongly advised to establish a standard
contract, identical for each of them, with the circuits on which they
wish to carry out their private testing.

So as you can see private testing isn't regulated.....so no changes have been made!

[manchild]

After all the talk regarding Schumacher and "evil" sponsors that force everyone to do anything, certain WRC drivers showed that there is another way… and how!

Subaru's Petter Solberg has been declared the winner of this weekend's shortened Wales Rally GB after on-the-road leader Sebastien Loeb opted to take a time penalty. The Frenchman wanted to avoid winning the event and therefore the title in the aftermath of a tragic accident in which Peugeot co-driver Michael Park was killed.

With Gronholm pulling out of his third place in the rally as a mark of respect for his Peugeot colleague and Solberg getting eight points for second, the 10 points for Loeb's victory would have been enough to seal a second consecutive drivers' title for the French Citroen driver, but he was understandably keen to avoid this situation. As a result, he deliberately opted to check in to the final time control late to incurr a two-minute time penalty which dropped him to third overall behind Citroen team-mate Francois Duval and Solberg.

There were no celebrations at the end-of-rally podium ceremony in Cardiff's Millennium Stadium, and the drivers and crowd held a minute's silence

=D>

[Spencifer_Murphy]

I have no doubt that should an F1 driver be killed Schumi or any other driver would do much the same thing. The death of a collegue is a huge loss, and not even in F1's world would such a catastrophic event go unnoticed.

Remember in 2001, Ferrari ran Monza with no branding? Bet the sponsor's weren't really happy...but even the "evil" sponsors will allow for events such as these.

[manchild]

Remember Imola 1994? Find recording of podium after Ratzenberger's and Senna's death. No further comments.
...
BTW, I was trying to make a parallel between Indy 2004 and Wales rally 2005. Schuey had a title in his pocket and drove by on and on while Loeb decided not to win even though he still can loose championship (and Park wasn't his brother). There were people here trying to justify Schuey’s behavior as imposed by sponsors, millions in stake etc. No can do.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Hummm....I have the 1994 Imola GP....if you watch the race again you'll see that Schummy doesn't jump on the podium as he usually did/does....he doesn't even celebrate the win! The only thing he does is clap his hands and gives a small smile when the trophey is giving to Nicole Larini...it was Nicole's first podium finish.

The thing of saying Schummy jumped and celebrated the win is a "urban legend" started by anti-schumacher fans!

I give my word...and I have the GP (the practice sessions, the qualifying sessions, warm up and race) all on tape....12 hours of tape! And I give you my word that what is said about Schummy isn't true.

(and I'm defending Schmmy and I hate the bastard...I'm a Damon Hill fan...but he's been wrongly acused of what people say he did at Imola)

A few weeks ago we had this discussion in another forum I go to....so I'm going to llok for the screen caps of the podium...