brake bias migration

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.
Blanchimont
Blanchimont
214
Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:47

Re: brake bias migration

Post

boxermotor wrote:The migration is clearly visible also when the car is standing in the pits: the bias is fairly consistent through the "pressure ramp" phase. Then during release, the rear master cyl returns quicker than the front. The bias moves to the front causing front wheel locking at medium to low speed.
Is the migration exactly the same when the car is in the pits compared to when on the track with hot brakes?
boxermotor wrote:The front master cylinder is usually smaller than the rear in order to get the bias adjustability range right, although there is still migration even with frt and rr master cyl the same size.
Is the migration smaller with the master cylinders being of the same size?
boxermotor wrote:New discs/pads reduce pedal travel hence migration. Worn brakes increase pedal travel hence migration gets worse. New discs front and "bad" discs rear require more bias to the rear and migration is slightly reduced. As a general rule, the more bias to the front, the worse the migration.

The car is a... single seater with a 3.5 engine :)
You should check all factors that hinder the master cylinder to return quickly to the starting position. Can the brake pads move freely in the calipers? What are the differences (length and diameter of the hoses, radius of the hoses when they have to change orientation) in the front and rear brake circuit that could cause the different pressures in the release phase?

Which parts of the brake circuits have you replaced to check if they reduce the migration?
Do other contenders in this series that use the same brake system suffer the same problems?

Try make a sketch of the front and rear brake circuit from the pads to the fluid reservoir and think about every single part what can hinder the pressure to decrease.
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

neilbah
neilbah
14
Joined: 10 Jul 2009, 20:36

Re: brake bias migration

Post

gp3? formula renault? :wink: so the brake system is spec? had to believe youd be the only car/team suffering if so. what kid of fluid, what kind of pads, what are the brake lines like, i like equal lengt systems f/r did you say youre compensating for the lengths of front rear being different with the different master cylinders then i take it.. any residual pressure valves? are the front calipes getting bled poperly lol

boxermotor
boxermotor
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 13:16

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Blanchimont wrote:Is the migration exactly the same when the car is in the pits compared to when on the track with hot brakes?
More or less yes, very similar
Blanchimont wrote:Is the migration smaller with the master cylinders being of the same size?
Yes, slightly smaller, but the "histeresys" is still there
Blanchimont wrote:Do other contenders in this series that use the same brake system suffer the same problems?
Apparently most of the teams but not everyone :shock:
Blanchimont wrote:Try make a sketch of the front and rear brake circuit from the pads to the fluid reservoir and think about every single part what can hinder the pressure to decrease.
Good suggestion
Thanks a lot Blanchimont, your ideas are quite useful.

There is always more histeresys in the front where the circuit lines are very short of course...

boxermotor
boxermotor
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 13:16

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Or, better:
There is always more histeresys in the front despite the fact that front circuit lines are much shorter...

Blanchimont
Blanchimont
214
Joined: 09 Nov 2012, 23:47

Re: brake bias migration

Post

BTW, what parts are you allowed to change/modify in the brake system?
Dear FIA, if you read this, please pm me for a redesign of the Technical Regulations to avoid finger nose shapes for 2016! :-)

boxermotor
boxermotor
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 13:16

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Just the master cylinders size

Jersey Tom
Jersey Tom
166
Joined: 29 May 2006, 20:49
Location: Huntersville, NC

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Would be interesting if you could plug the end of the brake lines before the calipers, work the brake pedal and see what the bias change done. Basically try to isolate it... is it in the calipers themselves or somewhere before that (MC's, pedal assy..)
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

tristancliffe
tristancliffe
1
Joined: 21 Feb 2013, 14:25

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Tilton came up with this to solve a similar problem in F3.

http://www.competitionsupplies.com/brak ... al-upgrade

boxermotor
boxermotor
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 13:16

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Great idea Jersey Tom! Will definitely do and let you know
Thanks

boxermotor
boxermotor
0
Joined: 24 Mar 2014, 13:16

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Thanks tristancliffe. We have basically the same layout.

emz57
emz57
0
Joined: 02 Oct 2024, 10:52

Re: brake bias migration

Post

Did you ever find a solution to this problem?