high exhaust

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West
West
0
Joined: 07 Jan 2004, 00:42
Location: San Diego, CA

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gcdugas wrote:
DaveKillens wrote:Technically, there can be as much as seven jones in a diffuser. Centerline, and as much as three on each side. The exhaust on older designs would exit somewhere, but definitely in the diffuser. The exhaust produces hot gases, but also when it exits the pipes, high velocity. That high velocity would boost the rest of the air velocity in that diffuser area, adding downforce to the rear.
But no matter what, shifting revs or sudden movements of the throttle would unsettle the delicate balance in the car.
Au contraire. Anything that fills the diffuser would only detract from the low pressure zone and coresponding downforce.
I read the same thing in Competition Car Downforce by Simon McBeath. You know the guy who does that Aero Bytes (?) in Racecar Engineering. Injecting the exhaust in the undercar flow will increase its velocity.
Bring back wider rear wings, V10s, and tobacco advertisements

Puma
Puma
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Joined: 08 Sep 2006, 20:02

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DaveKillens wrote:Technically, there can be as much as seven jones in a diffuser. Centerline, and as much as three on each side. The exhaust on older designs would exit somewhere, but definitely in the diffuser. The exhaust produces hot gases, but also when it exits the pipes, high velocity. That high velocity would boost the rest of the air velocity in that diffuser area, adding downforce to the rear.
But no matter what, shifting revs or sudden movements of the throttle would unsettle the delicate balance in the car.
This is correct. The term 'diffuser blowing' comes from blowing the fast, hot exhaust gasses into the diffuser.

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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gcdugas wrote: The exhaust never filled the diffuser.
In this pic you can see the diffuser of the Ferrari F1/87 (V6 turbo) and of the F1/89 (V12 N/A) :
[IMG:150:128]http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4821/d ... lt6.th.jpg[/img]
To have the exhausts to blow inside the diffuser was a quite usual solution from end of ground effect era till roughly 1995-1996. Then the reduction in length of the lateral channel itself (that since mid 1994 had to stop at rear wheels axle) and stepped bottom rule forced teams to completely re-think the design of rear end and that solution became less popular, still there were cars having exhausts in the diffuser (sometimes in the central channel) till 2000-2001.
gcdugas wrote: Au contraire. Anything that fills the diffuser would only detract from the low pressure zone and coresponding downforce.
Let’s see the theory of how a diffuser works then.
Most important law of fluid dynamics is mass conservation, meaning density * velocity * area = constant. The flow is incompressible so density is constant and we can simplify it to velocity * area = constant.
This applies at the throat and at the outlet, at the throat (and upstream it) the area is small consequently velocity will be high, at the outlet the area is large hence velocity is low. (then obviously where velocity is low pressure is high and viceversa so we have the wanted low pressure area under the car, upstream the throat)

Second important thing often forgotten (or ignored) is that the car underfloor is exit driven, meaning that it’s the condition at the outlet that controls the mass flow passing under the car, it’s not a matter of how much air I can push from the front, but of how much I can suck from behind (unless the car reaches supersonic speed, but we can safely assume that’s not going to happen in the next couple of years... there’s the engine freeze ;-)).
Consequently it doesn’t matter if at the front there’s a “mouth” as big as Texas (FW26 anyone ?) under the car it will go only the mass of air that the diffuser “asks” for and that’s, ideally, density * outlet area * velocity at the outlet.
Once the geometry, hence the ratio between outlet area and throat area, is set, the ideal velocity jump in the diffuser is set and consequently the ideal pressure jump is set. (then to be able to achieve a velocity jump as close as possible to that ideal is 99% of design work, but that’s another matter)
Incidentally, lowering the car changes the geometry of the diffuser, in particular it increases the ratio between outlet area and throat area hence increasing the ideal pressure jump.

Now that we understand all the above it’s evident that for a given diffuser geometry pretty much the only parameter left is the velocity at the outlet. Increase that velocity and that will induce an increment of velocity also at the throat and under the car, hence an increment of downforce.

To obtain that result for example you can add a wing near the outlet exploiting the increment of velocity caused by nose curvature. In that case the wing acts de facto as a prolongation of the diffuser.
Another way is what we are talking about in this thread. Blowing exhausts gasses in the diffuser you mix them with the airstream that passed under the car hence increasing a lot its velocity. That will induce an increment of the velocity at the throat and under the car => more downforce.

Then if the exhausts are blowing just above the upper edge of the diffuser outlet the mechanism changes little, it’s still a modification of boundary conditions at the outlet. Actually, given what I said about the beam wing acting as prolongation of the diffuser one can argue that also in that configuration the exhausts are still blowing inside the diffuser, the “big” diffuser formed by lateral channels + beam wing.

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Reca wrote:
Let’s see the theory of how a diffuser works then.
Most important law of fluid dynamics is mass conservation, meaning density * velocity * area = constant. The flow is incompressible so density is constant and we can simplify it to velocity * area = constant.
This applies at the throat and at the outlet, at the throat (and upstream it) the area is small consequently velocity will be high, at the outlet the area is large hence velocity is low. (then obviously where velocity is low pressure is high and viceversa so we have the wanted low pressure area under the car, upstream the throat)
I may well be wrong but I am not sure I agree that the flow is incompressible (regards to exhaust/diffuser) and therefore the basis for density being constant.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

SoftBatch
SoftBatch
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Joined: 29 Jun 2006, 21:53
Location: Madison, AL, USA

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mcdenife wrote: I may well be wrong but I am not sure I agree that the flow is incompressible (regards to exhaust/diffuser) and therefore the basis for density being constant.
While gasses are compressible, there is not significant compression in aerodynamic flow until an object reaches the transonic range. 600+ mph

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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even with regards to a difuser or exhaust (given temp changes for example)?
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

Reca
Reca
93
Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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mcdenife wrote: may well be wrong but I am not sure I agree that the flow is incompressible (regards to exhaust/diffuser) and therefore the basis for density being constant.
In the first part I was talking about how diffuser (actually the whole underfloor) works in general, without the exhausts flow and in that case certainly we can assume density is constant.
It’s only at the end that I introduced the blowing exhausts, as a way to increase the mass flow request from the diffuser.
It’s true that the exhaust flow has different density and hence causes a modification of the original flow characteristics at the outlet compared with the inlet (and in fact notice that I said that exhausts cause a “modification of boundary conditions at the outlet” not only a modification of speed), but the basic concept of downforce generation doesn’t change, by injecting a further high speed mass flow in the diffuser you cause an increment of the mass flow “requested” from the diffuser itself, hence an increment of speed under the car => reduction of pressure => increment of downforce.

AeroGT3
AeroGT3
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 23:22

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SoftBatch wrote:
mcdenife wrote: I may well be wrong but I am not sure I agree that the flow is incompressible (regards to exhaust/diffuser) and therefore the basis for density being constant.
While gasses are compressible, there is not significant compression in aerodynamic flow until an object reaches the transonic range. 600+ mph
I disagree. I don't know how to get it up here, but I can show you a wing at a freestream Mach number of 0.1 that gets compressible. Compressible flow happens way before transonic regimes - more like less than Mach 0.5!

Also, the conservation of mass statement (in aerodynamics it translated into the continuity equation), is NOT mass in equals mass out. At steady state, that is true. But there are transient effects - mass accumulation within a set volume due to changes in density, or changes in time derivates.

A better statement would be "the difference between mass in and mass out is equal to the time rate of change of mass contained within a specified volume."