Idea for mirrors

[salilp]

I know we're just talking concepts here. But imagine someone losing a camera feed to the rearview lcd!!!

[Ciro Pabón]

I know we're just talking concepts here. But imagine someone losing a camera feed to the rearview lcd!!!

You have a point, but I've seen my share of rearview mirrors simply falling off.

[Shi Ruan]

Maybe use a Heads Up Display, inside the helmet, projected onto the visor.

BINGO! Enter the OLEDS! http://www.universaldisplay.com/default ... tentID=608

I sincerely cannot believe that this isnt already in use...

Chris

1. It's a very, very new technology.
2. this might be part of the reason: "Transparency: Capable of 70% to 85% transparency when turned off"
3. Imagine a series of pixels failing and essentially blinding, or at least severely distracting, a driver.
4. I'd imagine it'd be difficult to integrate into the modern visors, especially with all the complex anti-fog, light-sensitive and crash protection aspects already in them.
5. it'd add weight to the helmet... never a good thing.
and 6. Information overload. An issue they found with the first HUDs in fighter jets was that there was simply too much information for the pilots to absorb. Now in a circumstance like F1, where it's not just fast reaction times but fast reaction times involving hitting things, that becomes magnified.

I think the simple, intuitive nature of a mirror along with their simplicity and reliability (it's hard for, short of falling off, a mirror to randomly "fail") gives them a massive advantage over any kind of video display. I agree, the regulations about mirrors need massive work, but I can't see them getting replaced any time soon.

[Conceptual]

Maybe use a Heads Up Display, inside the helmet, projected onto the visor.

BINGO! Enter the OLEDS! http://www.universaldisplay.com/default ... tentID=608

I sincerely cannot believe that this isnt already in use...

Chris

1. It's a very, very new technology.
2. this might be part of the reason: "Transparency: Capable of 70% to 85% transparency when turned off"
3. Imagine a series of pixels failing and essentially blinding, or at least severely distracting, a driver.
4. I'd imagine it'd be difficult to integrate into the modern visors, especially with all the complex anti-fog, light-sensitive and crash protection aspects already in them.
5. it'd add weight to the helmet... never a good thing.
and 6. Information overload. An issue they found with the first HUDs in fighter jets was that there was simply too much information for the pilots to absorb. Now in a circumstance like F1, where it's not just fast reaction times but fast reaction times involving hitting things, that becomes magnified.

I think the simple, intuitive nature of a mirror along with their simplicity and reliability (it's hard for, short of falling off, a mirror to randomly "fail") gives them a massive advantage over any kind of video display. I agree, the regulations about mirrors need massive work, but I can't see them getting replaced any time soon.

I think 85% transparency is fine... remember, most visors are tinted anyways. At least this way, the driver can even control the level of it!

I dont think info overload is a problem either. Im sure that if it was kept ultra simple, like gear, rpm, temp it would be fine.

The only problem that I can think of is that eventually the teams would be able to use it to draw a "virtual racing line" like Forza does on the circuit.

And about the weight, it clearly states that they already have them made for helmet visors, so why are you saying that it cannot be done? THEY HAVE!

Chris

[Conceptual]

dp

[Shi Ruan]

I think 85% transparency is fine... remember, most visors are tinted anyways. At least this way, the driver can even control the level of it!

I dont think info overload is a problem either. Im sure that if it was kept ultra simple, like gear, rpm, temp it would be fine.

The only problem that I can think of is that eventually the teams would be able to use it to draw a "virtual racing line" like Forza does on the circuit.

And about the weight, it clearly states that they already have them made for helmet visors, so why are you saying that it cannot be done? THEY HAVE!

Chris

Well, they have, yes, but weight becomes magnified when you talk about pulling 3-5g's in corners for 78 laps. And with the transparency, I've seen these displays, and there is a difference between the tint of the visors and the opacity of the display.. tint darkens things, this actually obscures them to an extent.

Anyway, there is no real reason to put that information in a HUD rather than a HDD on the steering wheel as we have today.

[Conceptual]

I think 85% transparency is fine... remember, most visors are tinted anyways. At least this way, the driver can even control the level of it!

I dont think info overload is a problem either. Im sure that if it was kept ultra simple, like gear, rpm, temp it would be fine.

The only problem that I can think of is that eventually the teams would be able to use it to draw a "virtual racing line" like Forza does on the circuit.

And about the weight, it clearly states that they already have them made for helmet visors, so why are you saying that it cannot be done? THEY HAVE!

Chris

Well, they have, yes, but weight becomes magnified when you talk about pulling 3-5g's in corners for 78 laps. And with the transparency, I've seen these displays, and there is a difference between the tint of the visors and the opacity of the display.. tint darkens things, this actually obscures them to an extent.

Anyway, there is no real reason to put that information in a HUD rather than a HDD on the steering wheel as we have today.

You mean other than the ability to never take their eyes off the track? Yes, Lord knows that we can give the driver an aid of that calibre, it might make the racing unfair.

Dude, its light, its bright, and it is something that will inevitably work its way into F1.

I contacted UDC about the helmet displays, so I hope to have some hard numbers on weight, etc...

Chris

[Shi Ruan]

You mean other than the ability to never take their eyes off the track? Yes, Lord knows that we can give the driver an aid of that calibre, it might make the racing unfair.

Dude, its light, its bright, and it is something that will inevitably work its way into F1.

I contacted UDC about the helmet displays, so I hope to have some hard numbers on weight, etc...

Chris

You still have to glance away from the track, refocus your eyes, and then glance back to the track regardless. I've had experience with HMHUDs(helmet mounted HUDs) vs. normal HUDS, and--maybe I'm unusual in this, but I don't think I am--I found the HMHUDs to be much more distracting than helpful.

Anyway, if they can get it light enough, reliable enough, and opaque enough to be used, I think it'd come down to drivers choice. I just don't see that happening in the next few seasons.

[Conceptual]

You mean other than the ability to never take their eyes off the track? Yes, Lord knows that we can give the driver an aid of that calibre, it might make the racing unfair.

Dude, its light, its bright, and it is something that will inevitably work its way into F1.

I contacted UDC about the helmet displays, so I hope to have some hard numbers on weight, etc...

Chris

You still have to glance away from the track, refocus your eyes, and then glance back to the track regardless. I've had experience with HMHUDs(helmet mounted HUDs) vs. normal HUDS, and--maybe I'm unusual in this, but I don't think I am--I found the HMHUDs to be much more distracting than helpful.

Anyway, if they can get it light enough, reliable enough, and opaque enough to be used, I think it'd come down to drivers choice. I just don't see that happening in the next few seasons.

I'll make my final decisions after I get the data from UDC.

Chris

[Ciro Pabón]

The Pentagon already made its decission: all fixed HUDs will be phased away. The last plane to have a fixed HUD will be the F-22 Raptor. The F-35 have only helmet mounted displays, not like the old monocular system used in the Apache and some F-16.

If Shi Ruan (welcome, my man) used the monocular system in Apaches (I'm clearly guessing here), perhaps this is the quite nerdy reason why he felt uncomfortable with them: The Urgent Need to use Both Eyes.

I read that combat plane designers are experimenting with display directly into the retina, using a low power laser. It's called virtual retinal display.

http://www.cs.nps.navy.mil/people/facul ... _full.html

Probably this technology soon will be popular, as it allows a tiny projector to give you full monitor sized images. Cool, your cell phone would incorporate the monitor, thus rendering monitors obsolete. Here is the prototype by Microvision:



Quote:

Future systems will be even more compact than present versions once the MEMS-based scanners are incorporated. Edge-emitting, super-luminescent light-emitting diodes (SLEDs) and miniature diode lasers under development will allow direct light modulation. In conjunction with application-specific integrated-circuit technology, these devices will permit the direct fabrication of a VRD display engine incorporating the electronics, light sources, and scanning assembly, all in a compact, hand-held, battery-operated package. The ultimate goal for the retinal scanning technology is a lightweight eyewear package as below.

I'm just suggesting to use a high power LED, but hey, dream on, dream on (sing with me, sing for the years, sing for the laughter and sing for the tears, if it's just for today, maybe tomorrow the good lord will take you away...).

[flynfrog]

I think 85% transparency is fine... remember, most visors are tinted anyways. At least this way, the driver can even control the level of it!

I dont think info overload is a problem either. Im sure that if it was kept ultra simple, like gear, rpm, temp it would be fine.

The only problem that I can think of is that eventually the teams would be able to use it to draw a "virtual racing line" like Forza does on the circuit.

And about the weight, it clearly states that they already have them made for helmet visors, so why are you saying that it cannot be done? THEY HAVE!

Chris

Well, they have, yes, but weight becomes magnified when you talk about pulling 3-5g's in corners for 78 laps. And with the transparency, I've seen these displays, and there is a difference between the tint of the visors and the opacity of the display.. tint darkens things, this actually obscures them to an extent.

Anyway, there is no real reason to put that information in a HUD rather than a HDD on the steering wheel as we have today.

You mean other than the ability to never take their eyes off the track? Yes, Lord knows that we can give the driver an aid of that calibre, it might make the racing unfair.

Dude, its light, its bright, and it is something that will inevitably work its way into F1.

I contacted UDC about the helmet displays, so I hope to have some hard numbers on weight, etc...

Chris

what about focal length its a pretty big jump to go form looking at the track to looking at the back of the visor

put on a pair of sun glasses and try to focus on the inside of the lenses while driving

when we used an LCD camera in the solar car it was mounted by the drivers feet to keep focal length long the problem was going from bright sun to the dark inside of the car

having used a camera system its fine for backing up but It sucked to use on a racing environment a mirror is much easier on the eyes

[Neophiliac]

what about focal length its a pretty big jump to go form looking at the track to looking at the back of the visor

put on a pair of sun glasses and try to focus on the inside of the lenses while driving

when we used an LCD camera in the solar car it was mounted by the drivers feet to keep focal length long the problem was going from bright sun to the dark inside of the car

having used a camera system its fine for backing up but It sucked to use on a racing environment a mirror is much easier on the eyes

I don't see focal length as an issue with HUD or HMD: the real beauty of the thing is that you can manipulate the focal point of the image so that it appears to be at some distance away. It is indeed impossible to focus on the inside surface of the sunglasses, but you wouldn't be required to - the focal point could be, say, 50 feet ahead: so that the driver would only have to shift focus slightly from where he's looking at anyway. The only problem, mentioned above, is getting the opacity and weight right. But I can's imagine that what's good enough for a fighter pilot would not be workable for an F1 car from both of those perspectives. Fighter pilots get much higher G-Loads and also have to see.

And as for the camera system that you used for backing-up: well it would be bad for racing precisely because it was designed for backing-up, rather than to replace the rear-view mirror. There is absolutely zero difference in principle between the information that you can get from the mirrors versus information that you can get from the camera, except that cameras are adjustable, can be placed better, and the displays can be made bigger without damage to aero.



As an additional idea, one could also greatly enhance visibility in rain by placing a few infrared sensors scanning both ahead and behind the car, and putting that data up on display when needed (takes some getting used to, I'm sure - but it's better than driving blind). That sort of tech is also being incorporated into F-35 helmet. It's pretty advanced, sure - so maybe a few years before they could do it in formula 1, but in the meantime there is no reason not to have regular and battle tested HUDs or steering-wheel (or above steering wheel) mounted LCDs at least as a supplement to mirrors.

[Conceptual]

Still no reply from UDC...

Chris

[connollyg]

I seem to remember a snippet in i think Autosport that Michael Schumacher or at least his helmet supplier was experimenting with a HMHUD.

In a previous life i worked on military aircraft and from what i remember the HUD was focussed at infinity.

G

[Conceptual]

I got a reply from UDC, and they say that they do not make the HUD visors yet, but they have tested and approved them if anyone wants to order one. They tell me early 2009 they will be commercially available.

Chris