3? place penalty ?

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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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myurr wrote:Suppose at least you're consistent in your support of the FIA.
You know... it's funny... seems like I'm a die-hard conformist :lol:
However your analogy is a bit odd as it would involve willful breaking of the rules. A closer analogy would be if they put put a speed limit sign saying 40mph, but secretly changed the limit to 30mph without telling anyone and then tried to prosecute people for doing 40 in a 30 limit.

Just what should Heidfeld have done in this instance? Stopped before he got to the pit lane and waited until he was sure that no other drivers were on track?
I see you, but as I already said about Buss-spotgate there's no way to open Pandora's box.
I read his interview and it seems it was mostly a team's fault (if GPS wasn't working they could pay more attention to the live-footage). At least three places is not that much.

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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timbo wrote: I see you, but as I already said about Buss-spotgate there's no way to open Pandora's box.
I read his interview and it seems it was mostly a team's fault (if GPS wasn't working they could pay more attention to the live-footage). At least three places is not that much.
I still think that the sport has to start taking steps to rectify the constant flood of stupid decisions spouting forth from the FIA.

A good first step would be the drawing up of a standard list of infractions and penalties - for example why was Heidfeld penalised 3 places when other drivers have received 5 place penalties, deletion of qualifying times, fines, etc.

They should also set about putting in place a permanent panel of stewards who are voted on by all the teams.

nae
nae
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Joined: 29 Mar 2006, 00:56

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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he either blocked or not blocked
they deemed he blocked

but why oh why the unheard of 3 place penalty
that's what gets me on this its plane daft

the standard penalty for blocking is 5 place grid drop

take gun aim at foot FIRE
..?

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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nae wrote:he either blocked or not blocked
they deemed he blocked

but why oh why the unheard of 3 place penalty
that's what gets me on this its plane daft

the standard penalty for blocking is 5 place grid drop

take gun aim at foot FIRE
He simply followed the pit lane - it just happens that the pit lane blocks the racing line. Had he deviated from his course he would have cut the line denoting the pit lane and received a different random penalty.

timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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myurr wrote:I still think that the sport has to start taking steps to rectify the constant flood of stupid decisions spouting forth from the FIA.

A good first step would be the drawing up of a standard list of infractions and penalties - for example why was Heidfeld penalised 3 places when other drivers have received 5 place penalties, deletion of qualifying times, fines, etc.

They should also set about putting in place a permanent panel of stewards who are voted on by all the teams.
Agreed!

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repaf1
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Joined: 07 Aug 2007, 04:45

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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How can they determine he blocked someone while driving in the mandartory pit lane entrance? Heidfeld was making correct use of the designated deceleration zone.

If he had cut that line, he would have gotten a fine just as Barrichello.

Even before the weekend started the drivers were warry of the pit entrance, and how it could effect the racing. http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 1328.shtml How the Stewards could not see this sort of occurance from happening, is ridiculous.

sorry to rant, but my point is, if they know there is the possibility of blocking another car who is not entering pit-lane, and can't make an improvement to erase the chance of blocking... then how can then penalize anyone?

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repaf1
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Joined: 07 Aug 2007, 04:45

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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Bourdais is less impressed, however, with the pit lane entry, which on Friday he described as 'incredibly dangerous'.

"It could be quite difficult if a driver decides to pull into the pits at the last minute," McLaren driver Heikki Kovalainen agreed.

Ferrari's Felipe Massa believes the pit exit could also be 'a bit critical' on Sunday afternoon.

"They are both pretty difficult and we will have to be very careful," team-mate Kimi Raikkonen concurred.
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/n ... 5928.shtml

andartop
andartop
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Joined: 08 Jun 2008, 22:01
Location: London, UK

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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I 'm just glad that it wasn't a McLaren driver being penalised for blocking a Ferrari driver! I really hope this doesn't happen during the race, I believe we've had enough conspiracy theory discussions after the Belgian GP. Strangely, no one seems to think now that the FIA is conspiring against BMW (by giving grid position penalty) and helping Honda (by giving fine instead of grid position penalty), but almost everyone seems to agree the FIA are being silly.
I believe it might be a good idea for the drivers to form some kind of association in order to discuss these kind of things and agree in between them how they should behave on track under similar circumstances to avoid similar incidents, before the race. It would also be a good idea if the teams actually had a rough idea of the track layout whenever there was a new track or changes made on an old one, so they could pose any concerns about design deficiencies to the FIA before the race. Oh, wait a minute..
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. H.P.Lovecraft

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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andartop wrote:I 'm just glad that it wasn't a McLaren driver being penalised for blocking a Ferrari driver! I really hope this doesn't happen during the race, I believe we've had enough conspiracy theory discussions after the Belgian GP. Strangely, no one seems to think now that the FIA is conspiring against BMW (by giving grid position penalty) and helping Honda (by giving fine instead of grid position penalty), but almost everyone seems to agree the FIA are being silly.
I believe it might be a good idea for the drivers to form some kind of association in order to discuss these kind of things and agree in between them how they should behave on track under similar circumstances to avoid similar incidents, before the race. It would also be a good idea if the teams actually had a rough idea of the track layout whenever there was a new track or changes made on an old one, so they could pose any concerns about design deficiencies to the FIA before the race. Oh, wait a minute..
Just to throw a bit of petrol on the fire, the problem is that whilst the FIA weren't conspiring against BMW there are many who believe that in this instance Ferrari may have been fined or let off completely and McLaren would have had a 5 grid place penalty (as has happened already this year).

We'll never know if this would have been the case or not, but it speaks very badly of the FIA that there could ever even be that doubt.

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Ciro Pabón
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Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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This is becoming funny. Every time that the permanent stewards, that probably have like 50 years of stewarding experience among them, give a penalty, there is a bunch of wise fans devoted to claim they're blind, without providing any evidence. And, pleeze, read the news: FIA has started to use permanent chief steward and permanent stewards since 2007, you hurried "opinionators".

It reminds me of the fans insulting referees at the soccer field.

If you want to learn sportmanship that's not the way. A gentleman takes his punishments without retorting, arguing like a child nor claiming that the world is unfair against him. If you disagree, that's what appeals and lawyers are for.

Actually, have you ever heard of a guy called Stirling Moss? Do you know why he is famous? Let me give you a clue: it's not because he revoked a penalty.

Have you EVER seen a referee saying: "Oh, yes, I can see you're upset. Wait a minute, lemme think: after watching your red face and hearing you yelling, I've decided I'm blind and you're right"?

Without any disrespect, and trying to instill some reason into your heated arguments: why don't you work as marshalls for a while?

At many tracks is a volunteer job and it instills you with a healthy dose of respect for stewards. You suddenly realize you know nothing about the rules, once you suddenly discover you don't even know the colours of the different fire extinguishers or what any of the different cryptic calls on your radio means.

And let me add that no matter how many times you read soccer rules and regardless how many times you PLAY football, you don't become a referee unless you do some referee work. Even karting calls are hard to make and to be sure of what you're doing you need experience.

Now, if you make mistakes, well, that's life. At least I'm human. I don't know what planet you were born, but in this one, when a referee makes mistakes, the first reaction of a "connoiseur" is to attribute them to failures.

Why do you always resort to malice as an explanation, when stupidity suffices? :)

Besides, we're talking Formula ONE, for the love of Pete! Now you tell me that the Formula ONE stewards don't know what they're doing.

In the name of all what's decent, these people have the most sophisticated systems for telemetry, they can pinpoint the speed of the car, they know its position to the centimeter, they know the angle of the throttle, the pressure of the brake pedal, the car has like 100 sensors and they don't know what they doing?

Besides, the drivers, guys that have all the experience in the world, guys that have been racing since they were in diapers, people that know the entrails of the car the way they know the shape of the sun, these guys, I say, they're always innocent lambs that were distracted. Yes, they can shave a wall by millimeters at 300 kph, but when it's about taking a curve to enter the pits, suddenly they become retarded morons that were just looking at the stand for a beautiful girl bending to pick up her ticket.

Don't make me laugh that I have a split lip, I went off the track this morning while karting in joy, just because Massa adjusted SIX tenths on Hamilton and my knee is still sore... and I'm 48, btw.

Yes, I know you're angry: you're favorite driver (Hamilgod? :)) got a penalty. It's not the end of the world. Get over it and learn to respect the drivers, the marshalls, the stewards and the best racing series in the world.

If you're so disgusted with F1, c'mon, you can watch cricket or croquet or any other sport that moves at a more leisurely pace, where referees never makes mistakes and all arbiter calls are evident, even for the ladies with the thick glasses.

At my age, with three kids and responding for an entire office, I can get into a sarcastic mood quickly, as most of you already know. I don't insult anybody, but I rant for ten paragraphs. So, at least give the benefit of the doubt to the guys that are putting their reputation on the line for your entertainement. And please, give me some coherent answer, because if I see the Ferrari International Assistance joke once more time I'm going to blow an aneurysm... At least make some jokes on me or on the referees, that's much more elegant. :D

Actually, I would LOVE to see any of the "complainers" trying to insinuate that any of my stewardship calls at a track (the ones for which I don't get a dime and a lot of angry fathers on top of me, showing the same impartiality you display!) is because of malice. Hrumpph...
Ciro

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Lots of stuff...
Football referees have to make an instant decision without any data or video playback. And they make lots of mistakes - but, and this is a massive but, most of them are respected as impartial. Sometimes they make silly mistakes but overall the majority of them command respect because they don't consistently favour one team over others.

Regarding permanent stewards, are you suggesting that the stewards at this race are the same as those at the last race, or the race before? If so then that really is news to me, and it would appear most of the rest of the pit lane such as Jackie Stewart.

Regardless of any FIA bias, cause we'll probably both argue till we're blue in the face, there is no way on earth that Heidfeld's penalty was just, fair, or appropriate. It's almost up there with Alonso's blocking of Massa penalty. It would help if the stewards had to decree the exact actions that they expected the penalised driver to have taken - in this case I'd love to know what Heidfeld was supposed to have done.

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Ciro Pabón
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Oh, c'mon! And what's the reason you have to say that? How many times have you studied the telemetry, Mr. Smartypants? :) And yes, the chief steward is the same, AFAIK. The ICAO ruled that way last year. Read the news, pleze.
F1’s new chief steward Tony Scott Andrews said: “Under the previous system all four permanent stewards spoke with each other on a regular basis and were aware of each other's decisions. Having the same steward at each race there is an even greater chance of consistency and of course that steward would have a greater awareness of the global scene in which he operates.”

WRC’s chief steward Nazir Hoosein added: “Both championships need a single permanent steward. It will help to sustain consistency in the decision making process.”

Both of the chosen chief stewards are seasoned campaigners in motor sport. Hoosein has been a regular steward in Formula One and rallying for the past ten years. He also has a seat on the World Motor Sport Council and was recently elected to be one of the six Vice Presidents of the FIA for Sport.

Scott-Andrews, has been one of the four permanent stewards in Formula One for the past three years as well as the National Steward for the British Grand Prix and joint chairman of the stewards for the British Touring Car Championship. A lawyer by profession, he is also chairman of the UK Motor Sports Council’s National Court and chairman of the Motor Sports Association Judicial Advisory Panel.

He was offered the F1 chief steward’s position after Australia’s John Large turned it down due to health issues. It was Large who recommended to FIA President Max Mosley that the role be offered to Scott-Andrews.
http://www.fia.com/automotive/issue3/sp ... icle1.html

Yes, I know this news are for 2007. And let me add that if there is a guy in this world I would trust my daughter to is Mr. John Large, which I've known for over 10 years. The guy is inspiring. But, of course, YOU can say is in Ferrari's payroll without even knowing his name and without a hair of your empty head moving... yeah, sure. :evil:

What can Heidfeld do next time? You know, there are some high technology thingies they have on board called mirrors. :lol:
Ciro

modbaraban
modbaraban
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007, 17:44
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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myurr wrote:Professional sport run by a bunch of useless amateurs. Ridiculous decision regarding Heidfeld. No idea on the Rubens incident, didn't see what that one was about so have no opinion yet.
:lol:

That's great! That's some progress. People now rant about FIA and its decisions even admitting own ignorance about the matter. =D>

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhorb3EFyQo[/youtube]

If you ask me, I think the penalty should go to the event promoters. Heidfeld is not to blame for rediculous pitlane entry. I mean he could smash his car into the pitwall at racing speed but... that would disrupt Rubens' lap anyway :)

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

Re: 3? place penalty ?

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Oh, c'mon! And what's the reason you have to say that? How many times have you studied the telemetry, Mr. Smartypants? :) And yes, the chief steward is the same, AFAIK. The ICAO ruled that way last year. Read the news, pleze.
F1’s new chief steward Tony Scott Andrews said: “Under the previous system all four permanent stewards spoke with each other on a regular basis and were aware of each other's decisions. Having the same steward at each race there is an even greater chance of consistency and of course that steward would have a greater awareness of the global scene in which he operates.”

WRC’s chief steward Nazir Hoosein added: “Both championships need a single permanent steward. It will help to sustain consistency in the decision making process.”

Both of the chosen chief stewards are seasoned campaigners in motor sport. Hoosein has been a regular steward in Formula One and rallying for the past ten years. He also has a seat on the World Motor Sport Council and was recently elected to be one of the six Vice Presidents of the FIA for Sport.

Scott-Andrews, has been one of the four permanent stewards in Formula One for the past three years as well as the National Steward for the British Grand Prix and joint chairman of the stewards for the British Touring Car Championship. A lawyer by profession, he is also chairman of the UK Motor Sports Council’s National Court and chairman of the Motor Sports Association Judicial Advisory Panel.

He was offered the F1 chief steward’s position after Australia’s John Large turned it down due to health issues. It was Large who recommended to FIA President Max Mosley that the role be offered to Scott-Andrews.
http://www.fia.com/automotive/issue3/sp ... icle1.html

Yes, I know this news are for 2007. And let me add that if there is a guy in this world I would trust my daughter to is Mr. John Large, which I've known for over 10 years. The guy is inspiring. But, of course, YOU can say is in Ferrari's payroll without even knowing his name and without a hair of your empty head moving... yeah, sure. :evil:

What can Heidfeld do next time? You know, there are some high technology thingies they have on board called mirrors. :lol:
Bit of a shame that Mr Tony Scott Andrews stepped down at the end of the 2007 season then isn't it :P

And those hi technology mirrors would not have made any difference. Legally Heidfeld couldn't have taken any other line - any move would have been penalised. So I ask again, what should he have done!?

myurr
myurr
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Joined: 20 Mar 2008, 21:58

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modbaraban wrote: That's great! That's some progress. People now rant about FIA and its decisions even admitting own ignorance about the matter. =D>

If you ask me, I think the penalty should go to the event promoters. Heidfeld is not to blame for rediculous pitlane entry. I mean he could smash his car into the pitwall at racing speed but... that would disrupt Rubens' lap anyway :)
Read my post again - I was grumpy at the Heidfeld penalty - I had no idea at the time what Rubens was fined for and therefore said I didn't have an opinion on it. I was only commenting on the Heidfeld incident.

At least we agree that Heidfeld was utterly innocent. His options really were, slow earlier and take a tighter line disrupting Rubens in the middle of the preceeding corner, or carry on following the designated path into the pits and hoping that Rubens made it past. Damned if he does, damned if he doesn't.