why cant you see the airflow?

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TheMinister
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Joined: 20 Feb 2008, 00:03

Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Giblet wrote:The luge accident not withstanding, but that was for the most part unpredictable, although very sad.
The way everybody reacted to that made me quite proud of the FIA for once. While everybody was mudslinging and saying who's fault it was and making kneejerk changes to how the sliding events worked, the motorsport community responds to accidents in a much better fashion, by looking calmly at the evidence and finding exactly what went wrong and how it can be made safe.

On the subject of safety at the winter olympics, I was really shocked at how unsafe the downhill skiing seemed to be. There was very little consideration of safety in the course design, and the lack of protective clothing worn by the skiers was shocking. I think skiing could learn a lot from motorsports about how to take an extremely risky sport and make it relatively safe.

JohnsonEvilTwin
JohnsonEvilTwin
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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The Luge incident was horrific.

Not one skier wore a black armband in memory of the Georgian(name escapes me).
I wont be controversial and say the winter olympics is there for the "privileged few", as an F1 fan thats a bit rich.
But I agree with "The Minister" that F1 has handled these situations much better in the past, and its (F1)contestants with far more grace and compassion.
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Giblet
Giblet
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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To the off topic credit of the organizers, they immediately changed the starting point to keep the speeds lower.

The architect of that track and all the other Olympic tracks has vowed to never make a faster track again. I am sure supports on corners will also not be near the track edge.

This is the problem with unprecedented events, nobody sees them coming, even though all the pieces are there to see it.

Skiers get hurt, and break their legs. It's what skiers do. The nets at the side were sprung and considered very safe, unlike the hay bales of the past. On hay bales, they were using them in MOTOGP way past their prime.
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Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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TheMinister wrote: I think skiing could learn a lot from motorsports about how to take an extremely risky sport and make it relatively safe.
Why? Why is it important to reduce / remove the risk? Perhaps the thing that draws extreme skiers to their sport is the risk.

So long as those undertaking an activity properly understand the risks / implications then why shouldn't they be allowed to carry out that activity? It's their life.

If you make everything safe then you take the fun out of life. There is some truth in the idea that only by risking ours lives do we truely appreciate them.
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riff_raff
riff_raff
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Joined: 24 Dec 2004, 10:18

Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Regarding the original post,

Local airflows and velocities can be visualized, but normally not with the naked eye. Unless the airflows entrain some sort of visible particulate matter such as dust, smoke or water vapor.

Devices such as laser velocimeters and doppler radars can give real time imaging of local airflows and velocities. Most aircraft and airports use these techniques to give pilots a warning of approaching wind shears or turbulence.

If these types of airflow imaging devices could be made cost effective enough to use on an F1 car, they would be extremely valuable. Just imagine a driver having a real-time computer generated image of airflow turbulence ahead of his car, being projected onto the inside of his helmet visor. He would be able to steer around this turbulence, thus avoiding understeering caused by the loss of forward aero grip as he comes up behind another car's wake.

If you ask me, this is the next big technology F1 needs.

What do you guys say?
riff_raff
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A: Start with a large one!"

rich1701
rich1701
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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kalinka wrote:It is indeed visible in right conditions :

http://www.f1today.nl/fotos/p305lco66.jpg

You can see a few examples on above page.

High hunidity/high speed i think.
Last year the BMW had more visible vortices around it's wing than any other car it seemed, I don't know if it was higher drag than most cars or what, but it certainly was noticeable.

Even when it was not humid you could still see the disturbed air around the back of the car through the heat haze. I remember it vividly.

The_Man
The_Man
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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The visible vortices I think are a good indication of the amount of down-force a car us running. When compresses air that has moisture is suddenly decompressed, in other words there is high negative pressure gradient, the moisture retention property of air decreases and there is a mist like thing formed. Much like the trail you see behind high flying jets.

The visibility of the vortices is the indication of its strength and size.
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Vehicle Dynamics FSAE 08; FS 09

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Actually I think some of this happened during the Chinese GP as the McLarens closed/opened their f-ducts. You can see something happening around the wing.
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Pandamasque
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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I don't think it had anything to do with the ducts. It happened in certain corners and was visible mainly around the rear wing endplates. I've seen it before.

roost89
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Pandamasque wrote:I don't think it had anything to do with the ducts. It happened in certain corners and was visible mainly around the rear wing endplates. I've seen it before.
It was noted that on entry and exit of the two main straights you could see votices on the McLarens (I didn't see it on the other cars, nor were they mentioned) in China. This being when the engaged and dis-engaged the f-duct.
These are from Scarbs' twitter:
As the McLarens exit the turn onto the back straight, you can see the vortex start to form off the rear wing, then disappear
That is the F-Duct working to reduce drag, amazing to see it in action!
Then the vortices reappear off the wing tip as they start to brake, amazing!
I wish I had more technical quotes than just Scarbs. Alas I don't.
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Pandamasque
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Fair enough. I do recall seeing them under braking for sure. It would be nice to find a video of that.

Belatti
Belatti
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Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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riff_raff wrote:
If you ask me, this is the next big technology F1 needs.

What do you guys say?
riff_raff
It would be major task for the driver to coordinate and optimize the turning trajectory between what the aero tells and where the rubber/marbles in the track are.

A nice thing to see for sure.
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Paul Oz
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Joined: 17 Apr 2010, 10:50
Location: Leamington Spa, UK

Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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Did anyone get any images of the Mclarens early last year covered in flo green paint? Before they went all clever and used UV paint instead.....

olie05
olie05
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Joined: 19 May 2010, 20:30

Re: why cant you see the airflow?

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http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... 010-22.jpg

There was one shot during the 2010 malaysian grand prix where one of the Mclarens was coming down the main straight, and you could really see the air it was displacing.

The above picture sort of demonstrates what I'm talking about.

I'm guessing it was mostly hot air that was being seen, but it was very easy to see.

I'll look at that race again and see if I can point out which lap it was on.