2013 Belgian GP - Spa

[SectorOne]

But in Scotland? Because it seems every country and certain groups in each country all had their own definition of what the difference was.

Perhaps he was the first to actually pen down his definition?

[Richard]

I wouldn't call hills in the Ardens "mountains" . Just big hills. But you are right, it was a forced situation.

mountains averaging around 350–400 m (1,148–1,640 ft) in height but rising to over 694 m (2,276 ft)

That's short of a traditional 3,000ft mountain from a UK perspective, but we have to remember this is Belgium. It's a generally low level country so perhaps the Ardennes are vertiginous for their context?

Meanwhile in Nepal they'd be wondering why we bother with 3,000ft pimples.

[turbof1]

I wouldn't call hills in the Ardens "mountains" . Just big hills. But you are right, it was a forced situation.

mountains averaging around 350–400 m (1,148–1,640 ft) in height but rising to over 694 m (2,276 ft)

That's short of a traditional 3,000ft mountain from a UK perspective, but we have to remember this is Belgium. It's a generally low level country so perhaps the Ardennes are vertiginous for their context?

Meanwhile in Nepal they'd be wondering why we bother with 3,000ft pimples.

We have a sense of the world; it isn't like that we don't realise what is standing in Nepal, so we aren't vertiginous about our ehmm... "mole dig-ups". Usually the trees are higher then the hills.

And sorry that I took notice, but did the world ended? Richard Leeds participating in an off topic discussion instead if throwing it in some or other ying yang thread . That's a first!

[Richard]

Surely the topography of the Ardennes is on topic? I'll have to consult the uber-moderator manual from Tomba ....

Section 3.4 c) second bullet point says that scenic diversions are allowed in the summer and winter breaks to pass the time while we wait for the next race. Actually it says nothing of the sort because Ciro chose to pass on his wisdom in Muysccubun. That's unintelligible to me and Tomba, so we've scribbled notes in the margin about we think Ciro ought to have said.

ps It's "mole hill" in English.

[SectorOne]

Everyone just stop for a second..
This is what an absence of F1 does Discussing the exact technical terms of hills and mountains

SPA can´t come soon enough!

[raymondu999]

For me it's clear that both Les Combes and fanges are chicaines for a simple reason – the curve of the racing line through the corner has only one inflection point in the centre. An S is taken with two inflection points.

I'm not sure I'd agree. Singapore Sling (which my friend, a safety marshall for the past 3 events, plus this one, says will be removed for this year) has 3 corners, and 2 inflection points (by inflection I assume you mean the points where you move the steering wheel past 0-lock) but I'd still call that a chicane.

IMO chicane is a matter of line and not a matter of apex speed. If the entry of one is connected to the exit of the previous, in the opposite direction, I'd call it a chicane. For example Abu Dhabi 2, 3, 4 would be an example. Of course then that raises a question about the drivers who straighten their steering for a split second between chicanes, because then the line effectively isn't connected

[beelsebob]

For me it's clear that both Les Combes and fanges are chicaines for a simple reason – the curve of the racing line through the corner has only one inflection point in the centre. An S is taken with two inflection points.

I'm not sure I'd agree. Singapore Sling (which my friend, a safety marshall for the past 3 events, plus this one, says will be removed for this year) has 3 corners, and 2 inflection points (by inflection I assume you mean the points where you move the steering wheel past 0-lock) but I'd still call that a chicane.

You're right – though that's rather a special case – it's rather two chicaines smushed together.

IMO chicane is a matter of line and not a matter of apex speed. If the entry of one is connected to the exit of the previous, in the opposite direction, I'd call it a chicane. For example Abu Dhabi 2, 3, 4 would be an example. Of course then that raises a question about the drivers who straighten their steering for a split second between chicanes, because then the line effectively isn't connected

I don't like this definition because it admits things like the Ses at sazuka or maggots/beckets/chappel at Silverstone, which are clearly not chicanes.

I agree completely that it's about the line though.

Perhaps another attempt at a definition would involve the number of times you cross the centre line of the track. In a chicane I would expect that you cross the centre line n + 1 times, where the chicane has n apecies. In the normal 2 corner example, once as you enter the chicane, once in the middle, and once as you exit the chicane.

Meanwhile, in Ses, I would expect that you cross the centre line 3 * n - 1 times. For each corner, once on the entry, once on the exit, and once to get across the track for the next corner, the minus one because you don't need to get across the track in the final one.

[Richard]

The only difference between a chicane and a fast left-right-left is the radius. They have same number of apex points, hence the same racing line.

If you wanted a definition then pick the radius or the speed.

[raymondu999]

How about the required angle of rotation between the apexes? Esses require less lock, chicanes require more definite lock

[Richard]

Do you mean the angle of the wheel? That'll be a function of radius of the racing line. I guess we're saying the same thing?

The angle rotated will be the same for fast or slow bends. A sweeping 45 degree bend is the same angle as a tight 45 degree bend.

[WhiteBlue]

I wouldn't call hills in the Ardens "mountains" . Just big hills. But you are right, it was a forced situation.

mountains averaging around 350–400 m (1,148–1,640 ft) in height but rising to over 694 m (2,276 ft)

That's short of a traditional 3,000ft mountain from a UK perspective, but we have to remember this is Belgium. It's a generally low level country so perhaps the Ardennes are vertiginous for their context?

Meanwhile in Nepal they'd be wondering why we bother with 3,000ft pimples.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaalserberg



Drielandenpunt is actually just some 30 km away. 323 m the highest peak in the Netherlands. Very popular destination for Dutch and Belgians. Sometimes they dress up with Lederhosen.

[raymondu999]

Do you mean the angle of the wheel? That'll be a function of radius of the racing line. I guess we're saying the same thing?

The angle rotated will be the same for fast or slow bends. A sweeping 45 degree bend is the same angle as a tight 45 degree bend.

Not angle of the wheel - angle of the car. ie bearing of the second corner, minus bearing of the first. Take the bearings at the apex.

[Hail22]

One could only dream that this era returned to Formula 1 (V10 Naturally aspirated engines that is) with reduction in aero....if only:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5Qy6cOua2I[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKozog429jg[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSePzgAHhec[/youtube]

[raymondu999]

I'm not sure I'd call those as aeor-reduced. I'd wager on those cars having more downforce than we have had since 2010

[Tim.Wright]

One could only dream that this era returned to Formula 1 (V10 Naturally aspirated engines that is) with reduction in aero...

You mean the era where overtaking was impossible because of the aero induced terminal understeer you got when you drove in the wake of another car?