New member - Bought an RA107

[747heavy]

Hi F1snake

Just out of curiosity, as there was a discussion on the board, back at the days when the RA107 was raced.
What´s the wheelbase and the trackwide (centre/centre of wheel) for the car?
If you did not measure it, and have it all apart now, don´t worry it´s not that important.
No need to spend hours to put it back together.

It could just help to see the possibility of a complete rear-end transplantation from another car.
An F3000 Lola would have a wheelbase of 3000mm, from the information floating around a SA2007 where said to have ~3135mm and the RA106 3140mm wheelbase.
Seeing, that the "bellhousing" of your gearbox is quite long, you may end up, with the same wheelbase and 50-80mm to spare between your tub and the F3000/GP2 rear end. This space you could use for an adapter to link the mounting points of you tub/chassis with the mounting points on said engine.
Also allowing for a slight offset in height of the new engine to counter the clutch diameter/crankshaft height problem.

Don´t get me wrong, I´m not trying to sell you on the rear-end swap idea.
But depending on your main aim, it could be the fastest way to a drivable car, where you can go and "scare yourself with".

Let´s be honest, the car will never be "original" unless you get a original engine for it.

I have huge respect for your aim and undertaking, put very frankly to attempt to either try to use the complete original gearbox, or to build a custom made gearbox/gear cluster into the original casing, is a huge project.

The first one, would require indeep knowledge of the control system/logic used by Honda, and is maybe difficult to replicate with a different controller unit.
It´s not impossible, but a huge challenge.
Keep in mind, that a crash/or other damage to the gearbox or casing could spell the end to the whole project, if there is no replacement available.

Depending on your aim/priorities and budget, I would at least take a look at a complete rear-end swap. It´s easy to do, and if you find, that it does compromise he original look of the car to much, or is too expensive, you can still do something else.
I´m sure, if you call around a bit, you will find someone with an ex F3000/A1GP/GP2 car, roll the complete rear-end behind your chassis/tub and have a look, how much of the bodywork/floor/diffusor would still fit?

To get somebody to make a set of steel wishbones and cover them with some carbon fibre fairings could be less of an challenge then trying to built your own gearbox internals or step gear - IMHO
You would get a proven and matched engine/gearbox unit, with all the electronics and control systems in place.
Gear ratio´s (for different tracks etc.) would be widely available as well.

To connect and wire your other sensors (throttle position, G-force, brake pressure etc.) to such a controller/ECU and connect a display would be fairly easy, compared to the task of developing your own gearbox controller for the Honda gearbox.

Keep in mind, that the original Honda gearbox was designed with the power/torque characteristic of the Honda engine in mind.
Even if you get it to run/shift gear, chances are high, that the gear ratios will not work well with your chosen engine (which most likely will be less powerful).
And getting different gear ratios for this gearbox, could prove difficult.

In any case, all the best for your project, whichever way you may go.
I have respect and admiration for your attitude towads this project and hope you succeed one day with it, and get the pleasure to run it, or see it run on a track.

All the best

747h

P.S.: from the informations on the web. (right or wrong? dunno), the Gp2 car would have a wheelbase of 3119/3120 mm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GP2_Series
http://arden-motorsport.co.uk/page.asp? ... o/GP2-Car/

dimensions F3000 Lola

[marcush.]

to give an idea about the GP2 installation.

[747heavy]

compare with this ( I know it´s difficult)




some other parts, pushrods etc. for your car seem to be for sale here.

http://www.f1partsfinder.co.uk/

[marcush.]

better pic

[747heavy]

thanks for the photo Marcus.
is this a maschined alu spacer in front of the engine?
Just asking, as it look´s a little bit "funny", and does not seem to be part of the main engine casting.
Could this be a "cheap" way to arrive at the desired wheelbase for the GP2 car.

I just ask out of interest, as I have never seen a GP2 car/engine from close quarters.

Thanks

[marcush.]

[mep]

That gearbox looks very ... "boxy"
I guess when you put that one in your bodywork again won't fit especially the diffusor.
Well it just shows how difficult it is to replace a F1 part with something else and how demanding that project is.

When you use the original gearbox with a step gear you can use the step gearset to adjust your final transmission ratio to your engine. Also it should be possible to replace gearsets inside the box to make fine adjustment like the team used to do. The transmission is sequential and I guess either pneumatic or hydraulically activated.
Doesn't this work similar like the gearshifts on a motorbike? So you have a input for up and downshift. Whenever you give one input it goes either up or down. Two inputs in row and it goes two up. So fine adjustment of it might demand some time but basically it should be a simple system. You don't need to make it automatic activated so you can make it pure pneumatically. Get rid of all electronically stuff hehehe
In my opinion engineers that use electronics are cheaters.
Well I haven’t seen the gearbox myself so that’s just what I expect how it is like.
Correct me when I am wrong.
Next thing you probably should do is take that piece apart and look how it is designed and operated. Also check if it’s possible to make the housing as milled aluminium part which features raised shafts and is some mm’s shorter.


Whatever you plan to do nothing will be easy and you need some serious engineering skills. Buying a Car that is 80% completed seems like a easy job to complete but in fact it’s very hard to get the remaining % because you are very limited with your designs.
Now it’s up to you to decide the way to go. We gave you some hints and input.

[PlatinumZealot]

F1 snake.Go with the H1V8..maybe you can get an internal gear set So the gears spin in the same direction.

You will have to put the ring gear on the engine side and the other gear on the gearbox side. You can see how you can achieve your new shaft height. There will be a slight reduction in gear speed ratio, but considering the F1 gearbox is designed for an 18,000 rpm engine this is not so bad right.

[marcush.]

I´m leaning towards 747h view tbh .this looks to me like something that can be handled technically.
The gearbox complications ..starting from ratios to gearbox control,be it gearchange ,blip,diffcontrol you name it...this alone is a major enggineering task you will only be able to tackle once the whole mechnaical side is done..i see the months if not years evaporating already...
and if i´m correct one of the main aspects of weight loss in the box internals was based on clever control strategies to lower peakloads on gearchange ...So if you start to develop something new ,maybe mechanical maybe pneumatic ...chances are the box will suffer a lot before you will even be near of a driveable solution...
I would put the box aside for the time beeing if there is no support available from someone at Brawn...

[747heavy]

Hi F1snake,

maybe you want to give these guys a call at some point.

http://www.team-edlinger.com/Racecar/Racecar1.php

looks like they are quite switched on, when it comes to "crazy projects" and hydraulic control systems.

some dimensions for the GM indy engine.

2002

Horsepower 670
Displacement 3.5 L
Cylinder bore (mm) 93
Max. RPM 10,700
Min. Deck Height (in.) 8.1
Crankshaft throw 180[degrees]
Main journal dia. (in.) 2.10
Rod journal dia. (in.) 1.70
Crankshaft wt. (lb.) 28.8
Min. engine wt. (lb.) 315
Min. crank centerline to sump (in.) 4.5
Cylinder head wt. (lb) 25
Left valve cover wt. (lb.) 4.5
Right valve cover wt. (lb.) 4.5
Complete engine wt. (lb.) 315

[Tim.Wright]

That gearbox looks very ... "boxy"

I agree. That actually looks to me that someone is running that as a private vehicle like F1snake. I dont think such a machined aluminium gearbox has been seen in F1 for a long time, looks like someone has made this to fit.

This is definately a possibility if the Honda gearbox becomes too tricky.

Tim

[nacho]

How would an IRL engine work?

http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/chevy ... 5091ss.htm

[marcush.]

That gearbox looks very ... "boxy"

I agree. That actually looks to me that someone is running that as a private vehicle like F1snake. I dont think such a machined aluminium gearbox has been seen in F1 for a long time, looks like someone has made this to fit.

This is definately a possibility if the Honda gearbox becomes too tricky.

Tim

You can see the GP2 logo on the right corner of the pic...I cannot be sure but this looks to me as a hint that this is indeed the GP2 installation..
The box is made by a Meccachrome subsidiary called GEARTEK, as far as I know.

[F1snake]

Many thanks for your thoughts and ideas. Its really great to be able to consult users of this forum, and we are chuffed to bits over all the fantastic input you have already given us. We are currently pursuing the various links and ideas posted by you on this thread, and we have made some really useful contacts.

747, the car is apart at the moment, but we'll put it back together again shortly, and post up the wheel base mesurements you mentioned.

It is tempting to 'just' bolt on the rear half of an F3000, and get the car on track asap. However, there is in my view a risc of changing the appearance the car too much, and we really like how car looks like at the moment. We will look into other options, but so far, the Hartley H1V8 seems the way for us to go. We like the thought of reliability and resonable rebuild cost. Its very unlikely that we will be able to use the Honda trans, due to complicated hydraulic issues for starters. We have spoken to Hewland about this and they are chewing it over at the moment. We are meeting with them mid-february, and I'll come back and post the outcome.

This project is certainly going to take some time, and getting there will be a fascinating journey. We have only just taken the first few steps, and we've already had quite a ride with this F1 adventure. No doubt we'll have some set-backs and it will skin us to the bone, but we will never give up.

[marcush.]

I´d think there is more than one possible avenue.The GP2 is certaily as a package as close as you might get to the real thing in terms of power ,paddle shift etc at the expense of big changes to the rear appearance.
going the Hartley route ,this would enable you to design a load bearing structure around the engine (due to its small size ...the Dome S102 was very interesting in that regard.this would also open a window of opportunity :You could try and design the interface from engine to the gearbox in a ways to be able to take the Honda gearbox OR
something else (maybe GP2).
This way around it would be possible to come back to the honda box someday but get the thing running in a reasonable time.
to noot alter the outer appearance you will need to think about the hartley crankshaft height and just how much it can be lowered into the car .

As for the gearbox internals of the current box ..was honda doing things all in house ?