2021 São Paulo Grand Prix - Interlagos, Nov 12-14

[Big Tea]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

I assume you know Max only did this because he knew there was 30m of run off to use. Correct ? Or did he just plain screw up and make a big mistake ? Missing a corner by 10m is a HUGE mistake

Agree. There's no way he makes such a huge 'error of judgement' in a corner like that on 8 lap old tyres. Otherwise it's a huge example of totally cracking under pressure.

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

And somewhat light in the F1 experience department too.

[the poster below]

In terms of whether or not to investigate during the race, other sports have introduced VAR (football), Hawkeye (tennis), DRS (cricket... probably not the acronym to go for here) etc. to allow a team to legitimately challenge an official decision during an event, within a certain time frame after the incident.

Perhaps there is a case to afford F1 teams one such opportunity during a race (or race weekend) if the stewards elect not to investigate something? If the stewards then investigate and it goes against you, you lose the review, and if they side with you then you keep it for possible use later in the event.

There is certainly enough video evidence and telemetry to support a review in relatively short order, and perhaps it would cut down on sycophantic radio messages to the FIA from the teams.

In this particular case, I don't know that it would have changed the outcome during the race, i.e. who knows if verstappen would've been penalised or not, but it gives a decision which is clearly appealable, whereas the decision not to investigate might mean that that right is not necessarily available.

[Wouter]

Here another opinion from a Dutchman, eh ......

Andretti praises stewards: "So glad there was no penalty"

A top driver recognises another top driver when he sees one. Without a doubt, this also applies to Mario Andretti,
probably the greatest American racing driver of all time.
The now 81-year-old Andretti is on the edge of his seat enjoying every Grand Prix. In an exclusive interview with GPblog,
the 1978 World Champion shares his views on the intense title fight between Hamilton and Verstappen.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/99122/an ... nalty.html

[Hoffman900]

I've said it before, but for as breathlessly sophisticated as F1 thinks it is, they can't ever get the fundamentals right. Like just basic, running the race.

[Hoffman900]

Here another opinion from a Dutchman, eh ......

Andretti praises stewards: "So glad there was no penalty"

A top driver recognises another top driver when he sees one. Without a doubt, this also applies to Mario Andretti,
probably the greatest American racing driver of all time.
The now 81-year-old Andretti is on the edge of his seat enjoying every Grand Prix. In an exclusive interview with GPblog,
the 1978 World Champion shares his views on the intense title fight between Hamilton and Verstappen.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/99122/an ... nalty.html

Stop the presses! Mario has spoken!



I like Mario, I respect all he has done, but he hasn't been in a F1 car 40 years, it's been over 25 years since he's raced, and I've seen him get huffed over MUCH less.

[Hoffman900]

Here another opinion from a Dutchman, eh ......




https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/99122/an ... nalty.html

Stop the presses! Mario has spoken!



I like Mario, I respect all he has done, but he hasn't been in a F1 car 40 years, it's been over 25 years since he's raced, and I've seen him get huffed over MUCH less.

I get it, given the comments on my posted articles.
You may only post articles here that are pro Mercedes and pro Hamilton.
Everything else is ridiculed and/or denied in the Lewis race thread.

No, I think this is all ridiculous.

These guys are multi millionaires that live in Monaco and race in vehicles that are nothing more than a marketing exercise for international corporations. Why people care this much is beyond me. It's entertainment, and I'm entertained. That said, I want the rules to be enforced evenly, in the name of sport.

[RZS10]

This is a technical forum (sometimes it seems in name only but i digress) so wouldn't analysing the actual footage, data, braking points, speed deltas to previous laps do more to further the discussion of the issue at hand than "(former) racing driver agrees with my POV" ?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't wrong, of course, more steering angle might have ended in massive understeer or a spin causing Max to collect Lewis - Palmer addresses this in his own analysis (maybe someone with F1TV could do a write up of the longer version which includes data and not just visuals) - the thing is: this point ignores the late braking and the huge speed differential to the previous laps, so how Max got into that situation in the first place.

Andretti basically makes the "it's good for the show so let them go at it" argument, but rules are rules and should be applied regardless of who might be breaking them.

He also says that he doesn't want the stewards "deciding the world championship" - but imagine for a moment that Lewis would not have managed to overtake, then the stewards would have been close to actually deciding the championship in giving Max a 28 point lead with three races to go by not interfering and not applying the rules as appropriate.

[dans79]

This is a technical forum (sometimes it seems in name only but i digress) so wouldn't analysing the actual footage, data, braking points, speed deltas to previous laps do more to further the discussion of the issue at hand than "(former) racing driver agrees with my POV" ?

Ho-Pin Tung isn't wrong, of course, more steering angle might have ended in massive understeer or a spin causing Max to collect Lewis - Palmer addresses this in his own analysis (maybe someone with F1TV could do a write up of the longer version which includes data and not just visuals) - the thing is: this point ignores the late braking and the huge speed differential to the previous laps, so how Max got into that situation in the first place.

Andretti basically makes the "it's good for the show so let them go at it" argument, but rules are rules and should be applied regardless of who might be breaking them.

He also says that he doesn't want the stewards "deciding the world championship" - but imagine for a moment that Lewis would not have managed to overtake, then the stewards would have been close to actually deciding the championship in giving Max a 28 point lead with three races to go by not interfering and not applying the rules as appropriate.

Yea, that's why I have a hard time discussing "let them race" without resorting to expletives. When they aren't racing to the rules, they aren't racing, they are generating fake drama and controversy for the casual and unknowledgeable fans to keep them engaged and spending money on subscriptions.

Let's not forget that the "let them race" line of thought isn't even applied equally up and down the grid. If you are a fan favorite, the "underdog/challenger", or a title contender you are treated differently to someone in the middle or back of the grid.

[AeroDynamic]

I assume you know Ho Pin Tung, a racing driver and F1 analyst, who always gives his unbiased analysis after every race on everything that happened in the race.

I assume you know Max only did this because he knew there was 30m of run off to use. Correct ? Or did he just plain screw up and make a big mistake ? Missing a corner by 10m is a HUGE mistake

Agree. There's no way he makes such a huge 'error of judgement' in a corner like that on 8 lap old tyres. Otherwise it's a huge example of totally cracking under pressure.

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

Well, I don’t know about cracking. But it’s plain as day to see that he was nervous of Lewis coming on the straight, that lunge on Lando had max Shook . He kept defending the inside into T1 trying to pre empt a lunge that wasn’t there, when he didn’t need to, Lewis was too far back. Alonso didn’t fall for this. Max did it three times and the third time was his undoing. He could’ve stayed in front for longer, and who knows,might have been enough to win? The three times he tried to pre empt the lunge, just brought him into the jaws of Lewis. Those unnecessary defences were like blood in the water to a shark.

People go on about rocket ships when the driver they want to win loses but the reality is this;

The qualifying time was 4 tenths. New engine is up to 2 tenths faster according to some. How do you know Lewis just isn’t 2 tenths faster than max?

The max in the RB in clean air was still pulling half a second on Lewis in the race through sector 2. That’s according to his race engineer.

[basti313]

It's worth mentioning that Ho Pin Tung is Dutch, as well.

So every Dutchman is biased and pro Max?

In so much as every British person is accused of being biased and pro Hamilton.

This is the only truth I can recognize in this constantly repeating yin yang every race thread who of the spoiled brats in their rocket ships needs to be penalized more.

I mean...honestly...Hamilton won. And we have more pages than ever in a race thread per day (ok...maybe Stone) about penalizing Ver....to give Bot more points who was the traitor last week

Keep it up guys, you totally realized what sports is about

[Wouter]

The race thread here is always about how Lewis and Mercedes do everything. However, 19 other drivers participate
in the F1 races. It can be seen that hardly any of those fans have been posting here for a long time
because if you are not pro Mercedes/Hamilton you will be expertly criticized/ridiculed/called stupid here.
Then more moderators are asked to intervene and improve the atmosphere.
Have fun with your Mercedes racing thread. This was also my last post here.

[Hoffman900]

The race thread here is always about how Lewis and Mercedes do everything. However, 19 other drivers participate
in the F1 races. It can be seen that hardly any of those fans have been posting here for a long time
because if you are not pro Mercedes/Hamilton or pro RedBull/Verstappenyou will be expertly criticized/ridiculed/called stupid here.
Then more moderators are asked to intervene and improve the atmosphere.
Have fun with your Mercedes racing thread. This was also my last post here.

It's all ridiculous and fanboi's / trolls of both camps suck all the oxygen out of this place.

[dans79]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/17/the ... eview-bid/

Some more information thats shows Max might not be in the clear for the turn 4 incident!
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/17/the ... eview-bid/

Second, and potentially more tricky for Mercedes, is the question of which exact decision they want the stewards to reconsider. In Red Bull’s case, they asked the stewards to reconsider British Grand Prix document number 44, which issued the 10-second penalty to Hamilton. But there is no corresponding document for Sunday’s lap 48 incident because the stewards did not investigate it – that in itself is the focus of Mercedes’ complaint.

Another incident from two years ago, in which Verstappen happened to be the victim, gives them a potentially useful precedent to argue otherwise.

As the field swept around the first corners at Suzuka during the 2019 Japanese Grand Prix, Charles Leclerc drifted wide of the apex at turn two and clouted Verstappen’s Red Bull into a spin. Within two laps race control announced “no investigation necessary”.

This changed after the race, when the stewards decided the incident should be looked at. After doing so they handed Leclerc a five-second time penalty. If the stewards can reconsider their own decision not to investigate an incident, Mercedes will no doubt argue it’s only fair to permit them to request the same.

“Some new evidence became available which they didn’t have available at the time and they chose to effectively reopen the investigation,” explained Masi following the 2019 race. “So originally, with what was available to them, they made a determination that there was no investigation necessary.

“Then they got some other footage which they didn’t have and, well within their rights, it was a new element and they reopened it.” At Suzuka in 2019 the stewards did exactly what Mercedes are now asking for.

[AeroDynamic]

https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/17/the ... eview-bid/

Some more information thats shows Max might not be in the clear for the turn 4 incident!
https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/17/the ... eview-bid/

Second, and potentially more tricky for Mercedes, is the question of which exact decision they want the stewards to reconsider. In Red Bull’s case, they asked the stewards to reconsider British Grand Prix document number 44, which issued the 10-second penalty to Hamilton. But there is no corresponding document for Sunday’s lap 48 incident because the stewards did not investigate it – that in itself is the focus of Mercedes’ complaint.

Another incident from two years ago, in which Verstappen happened to be the victim, gives them a potentially useful precedent to argue otherwise.

As the field swept around the first corners at Suzuka during the 2019 Japanese Grand Prix, Charles Leclerc drifted wide of the apex at turn two and clouted Verstappen’s Red Bull into a spin. Within two laps race control announced “no investigation necessary”.

This changed after the race, when the stewards decided the incident should be looked at. After doing so they handed Leclerc a five-second time penalty. If the stewards can reconsider their own decision not to investigate an incident, Mercedes will no doubt argue it’s only fair to permit them to request the same.

“Some new evidence became available which they didn’t have available at the time and they chose to effectively reopen the investigation,” explained Masi following the 2019 race. “So originally, with what was available to them, they made a determination that there was no investigation necessary.

“Then they got some other footage which they didn’t have and, well within their rights, it was a new element and they reopened it.” At Suzuka in 2019 the stewards did exactly what Mercedes are now asking for.

Interesting development. It is an angle but it still falls short of fact that Hamilton didn’t get bonked out of the way or damaged. Not that I think that criteria should be relevant to an incident, a driver successfully avoiding contact should not exonerate a racing code crime. We will see.

[SiLo]

The race thread here is always about how Lewis and Mercedes do everything. However, 19 other drivers participate
in the F1 races. It can be seen that hardly any of those fans have been posting here for a long time
because if you are not pro Mercedes/Hamilton you will be expertly criticized/ridiculed/called stupid here.
Then more moderators are asked to intervene and improve the atmosphere.
Have fun with your Mercedes racing thread. This was also my last post here.

Incredible that you can post that and ignore Pro-Max /Pro-RB posts everywhere. Fact is both of these teams/drivers are the most popular in the sport, so they have the most fans, and they talk about each other the most.

This weekend was always going to be bad because of the aggressive moves from Max. If the roles were reversed it would be the same.

You can't escape this reality, but you can step out of the race threads and away from it. No need to stop posting entirely. Unless you mean posting in race threads, which is probably a good idea!