Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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zx9rc1
zx9rc1
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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Callum wrote:Im always for looking at the bright side of things..

if the spring had hit maybe two inches lower i think the weaker visor would have taken the full blow.

could have been worse.

i hope he makes a full and speedy recovery.
It could have been a lot lot worse, it could have happened earlier on the straight leading up where there is less run off and only armco to hit

I second that I hope he does as well.

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ringo
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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mpbx3003 wrote:
Ray wrote:Kimi in Monza 2007 went really far forward as well.
I don't think you can really compare those two crashes, Massa's head doesn't look restrained at all. You can see the bottom edge on the back of Massa's helmet, but Kimi's head only goes far enough to see halfway down the back. That said, Kimi's head does go further than usual. Maybe Ferrari have some problem with the device.
Ferrari are using much lighter restraint materials. It wan an update in Barcelona?
Maybe the lighter belts failed.
For Sure!!

modbaraban
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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I assume the object knocked him off. Massa was already going to brake, his feet were on both pedals. He came off the throttle and the deceleration of the car (due to aero drag and hitting the curbs) sent his uncontious body slightly forward which caused very mild braking (+ no grip). The deceleration looked very insignificant. Thus slight and inconsistent skid marks from the front tyres. Then during the shunt his body was launched forward which caused the throttle to open. The latter happens quite often in such sitioations - Surtees, Kimi at Monza '07 mentioned above to name a few.

I hope Felipe gets well soon gets back to what he loves - racing.

pete555
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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The belts are supplied by a third party and have to be approved by the Fia to a standard.

Seriously 90% of this thread is wild speculation and or bullshit

A very talented driver is hurt the who why and what will be investigated with more thought and process using the factual data of telemetry and frame by frame tv evidence.

The spring hit where it did, NOT 2 inches up or down.

see above post for clarification on wild speculation and bull

santoni
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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I think people on here need to remember the problem here is a faulty spring, not a faulty helmet!

mpbx3003
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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ringo wrote:
mpbx3003 wrote:
Ray wrote:Kimi in Monza 2007 went really far forward as well.
I don't think you can really compare those two crashes, Massa's head doesn't look restrained at all. You can see the bottom edge on the back of Massa's helmet, but Kimi's head only goes far enough to see halfway down the back. That said, Kimi's head does go further than usual. Maybe Ferrari have some problem with the device.
Ferrari are using much lighter restraint materials. It wan an update in Barcelona?
Maybe the lighter belts failed.
You know, I think there probably was a problem with the belts, because when you see the slow-mo version, you can see the HANS device on the back of his helmet. As far as I know, the device stays on the shoulders, while the head goes slightly forward, but restrained by the tethers. The more I see of it, the worse the circumstances surrounding this crash get.

*EDIT*
I take it back, it's not the HANS you can see, it's the back of his helmet.
Last edited by mpbx3003 on 26 Jul 2009, 02:06, edited 1 time in total.

Shrek
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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santoni wrote:I think people on here need to remember the problem here is a faulty spring, not a faulty helmet!
yes Brawn may need to work on their springs staying put, but the helmet shouldn't fail unless it goes through a brick wall at the sound of speed.
Spencer

zx9rc1
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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I've never worn HANS myself, so can you answer a question? How easily can you remove the tethers? I was thinking that maybe the spring, when it bounced around after hitting him, might have knocked one of them loose.[/quote]


You have a sprung collar with a central post, the collar is depressed and the strap buckle is slid over and under a lip on the post, the force of the sprung collar pushes the buckle into the lip on the post. You have to depress the collar all the time whilst removing the strap and it takes two seconds at least.

A quick direct impact would have to be at exactly the right angle and sustained to allow the buckle to come adrift and even then the buckle would have to unseat itself from the post. I cant think that this could happen unless the clip or the post was broken. They are immensely strong though. You would need a direct blow with a sizeable hammer to break it.

Sorry was trying to take a pic of my lid to show you the Hans post but didnt know how to post the image as I dont have pic hosting

zx9rc1
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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pete555 wrote:The belts are supplied by a third party and have to be approved by the Fia to a standard.

Seriously 90% of this thread is wild speculation and or bullshit

A very talented driver is hurt the who why and what will be investigated with more thought and process using the factual data of telemetry and frame by frame tv evidence.

The spring hit where it did, NOT 2 inches up or down.

see above post for clarification on wild speculation and bull
If the belts were not to FIA spec the car would fail scrutineering, they are very very hot on belts and helmets and check every drivers Hans, Helmet and Belts at every race weekend.

modbaraban
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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pete555 wrote:see above post for clarification on wild speculation and bull
This thread is indeed a speculation. If you have nothing but insults to contribute to it, JUST LEAVE, for Pete's sake.
Last edited by modbaraban on 26 Jul 2009, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Ray
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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pete555 wrote:The belts are supplied by a third party and have to be approved by the Fia to a standard.

Seriously 90% of this thread is wild speculation and or bullshit

A very talented driver is hurt the who why and what will be investigated with more thought and process using the factual data of telemetry and frame by frame tv evidence.

The spring hit where it did, NOT 2 inches up or down.

see above post for clarification on wild speculation and bull
Then correct us pete. Or do you not have opinion yourself and would rather look to be smarter than everyone by calling all of the discussion so far bullshit. We are going off of what we've seen by comparing past accidents and reports to this one with a little bit of media reporting thrown in to fill the gaps. I'm willing to bet alot of what has been said by us will be correct or very close to it. Thanks for stopping by and contributing nothing of substance.

zx9rc1
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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You know, I think there probably was a problem with the belts, because when you see the slow-mo version, you can see the HANS device on the back of his helmet. As far as I know, the device stays on the shoulders, while the head goes slightly forward, but restrained by the tethers. The more I see of it, the worse the circumstances surrounding this crash get.[/quote]

The Hans device is held in place by the straps, the collar of the Hans forms into two outriggers if you will that go down over your chest, these are held in place under the straps, which are of course 5 point harness with anti submarining and crotch straps to stop you going down in the car. You and the Hans are effectively locked in the car unable to go anywhere. The Hans in turn is clipped to the side of your helmet. Thus in a crash your head moves forward, this action pushes the outriggers into your chest and shoulders which are locked to your body by the straps. Because they push into your body they can go no further so therefore the helmet is stopped from going foward as the tethers are restrained to the collar portion of the hans which also extends some way up the back of your helmet

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Ray
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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mpbx3003 wrote:
Ray wrote:Kimi in Monza 2007 went really far forward as well.
I don't think you can really compare those two crashes, Massa's head doesn't look restrained at all. You can see the bottom edge on the back of Massa's helmet, but Kimi's head only goes far enough to see halfway down the back. That said, Kimi's head does go further than usual. Maybe Ferrari have some problem with the device.
Sorry, didn't mean to imply they were very similar in nature, just that Kimi had an accident with little or no braking into a tire wall and his head snapped pretty far forward even while conscious. I truly believe he was completely out after the spring hit after watching the video again. He didn't even let go of the wheel and I've seen plenty of times someone knocked out and they were still holding something even after hitting the floor.

zx9rc1
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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zx9rc1 wrote:I've never worn HANS myself, so can you answer a question? How easily can you remove the tethers? I was thinking that maybe the spring, when it bounced around after hitting him, might have knocked one of them loose.

You have a sprung collar with a central post, the collar is depressed and the strap buckle is slid over and under a lip on the post, the force of the sprung collar pushes the buckle into the lip on the post. You have to depress the collar all the time whilst removing the strap and it takes two seconds at least.

A quick direct impact would have to be at exactly the right angle and sustained to allow the buckle to come adrift and even then the buckle would have to unseat itself from the post. I cant think that this could happen unless the clip or the post was broken. They are immensely strong though. You would need a direct blow with a sizeable hammer to break it.

Sorry was trying to take a pic of my lid to show you the Hans post but didnt know how to post the image as I dont have pic hosting[/quote]

Also all Hans fitments have to be certified before you can use them on a helmet by helmet basis

mpbx3003
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Re: Massa crashes after being hit by heave spring

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pete555 wrote: A very talented driver is hurt the who why and what will be investigated with more thought and process using the factual data of telemetry and frame by frame tv evidence.
Given that most of the discussion has been based on On-screen Telemetry, video evidence, and media reports, how is this discussion so much different to an official investigation. We don't have as much data to work with, but that doesn't mean we can't draw some conclusions from it.