FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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El Scorchio
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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siskue2005 wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 09:31
etusch wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 08:30
sory if it is already shared
What are qualifying modes?
Qualifying modes make available extra engine revs and the ability to run without harvesting power and diverting it to the battery, thereby allowing maximum deployment of energy recovered via the two energy recovery systems. These modes also typically run more aggressive ignition timing and fuel mixture.

By contrast, a standard race mode will allow adequate harvesting to keep the battery supplied with energy that can be deployed through the lap – without draining the battery and thereby compromising the following lap. It will also typically run lower maximum revs than the qualifying mode and a setting of ignition timing that keeps the valves and piston crowns at a safer temperature.
Typically there are several – up to nine – modes in between the two extremes. This is all about trading off performance with engine life, reliability and fuel consumption.


So what’s the proposed change?
Previously the qualifying and overtake modes would have a time limit per event imposed upon them by the engine manufacturer, so as to keep the power unit within its usage limit. A letter sent to the teams at Barcelona suggests that the subsequent Technical Directive will require the power unit to be run in the same single mode during qualifying and race. This has yet to be confirmed by the Technical Directive itself.

Why is this rule being implemented now - and what impact will it have?
To assist policing. The FIA has to police a number of power unit parameters through very detailed data analysis, and it is felt that this directive will help them achieve that – and have more confidence of power unit legality as a result. Of course, a consequence of the move would be to clip the wings of the power unit which shows the biggest power boost between normal and qualifying modes. At this point that's believed to be Mercedes, with Ferrari showing the least difference between the two modes. Renault and Honda are quite similar in between those two extremes.

The move would save expensive development programmes for Honda, Renault and Ferrari at a time when the FIA is very actively trying to close down cost drivers. As a downside, it would reduce the differences in power at any given moment between two dicing cars. Often the passing we see in hybrid F1 era comes from one driver forcing another to use up his energy store defensively, then having none left as the attacking driver deploys.


https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... UFncL.html
Really? is this from FIA? or Liberty? so they are acknowledging only Honda, Renault and Ferrari are not using this mode? and it is going to effect only Merc, not anyone else. So that is their aim.. :lol: cant wait to see it backfire :lol:
TBH Given the absolute obvious and cynical timing and nature of this directive, (slow down all the other teams- especially Mercedes- so Ferrari don’t look so bad) it would be somewhat amusing if this only exacerbated the current difference between engines. Imagine if the Mercedes was just able to run at a far higher level through a race and you have Williams cars outqualifying or overtaking Red Bulls and Ferraris.

I might be a bit worried if I was RB because those Hondas can go pop quite often.

What’s the next step if this doesn’t work as intended? ‘All aero better than what’s on a red car is banned.’ ‘Parachutes to be attached to the rear of any car which happens to be black or silver.’ ‘No drinks manufacturer may sponsor an F1 team any longer.’

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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basti313 wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 23:32
Simple question...stepping away from the Ferrari, Mercedes, FIA Jing Jang:
Do you think it makes racing better to have 10 engine modes on the car?

My impression is, that if two cars are in a race defining fight than both cars will use the highest modes possible. So this neuters each other and just leads to Merc powered cars more overtaking oder being less overtaken....but let us assume all engines are similar...what does it bring to racing that they can cycle through 10 engine modes and that the race engineer tells the driver to change them 100 times during a race?

If I am stepping back from the view on the actual teams and engines...I think the engine modes bring no benefit at all to anything I want to follow or see.
Think back to Baku 3 years ago. Ricciardo used PU modes to prepare for and then challenge Verstappen several times before their coming together. Potentially with the new rules that battle would not happen.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

michl420
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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For me this new rule is acceptable, but bring it in the middle of the year is bullshit. It is like saying we drive with a V6 and say before the first qualy of the year it is only allowed to use 5 of the 6 cylinder. And of course it is to slow mercedes down.

63l8qrrfy6
63l8qrrfy6
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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The cost reduction justification is also quite poor.
Why not impose a minimum rake too, to stop teams spending on moving towards a more merc-like setup ?

What's to say spending won't go up as teams throw resources into optimising an universal mode ? Keep in mind that any change in mapping is not only development dyno time, but also durability dyno time to prove out new duty cycles. And durability tests do require brand new engines..

The other point is that many of the engine settings they change simply have to do with the correct operation of the engine. How many times do we see drivers losing a bit of power or complaining about incorrect operation of harvesting/ deployment strategies ? How many times are these issues resolved by adjusting engine settings ?

I am starting to believe that more than half of the engine manufacturers will just say no can't do. Maybe we'll see the regulations for 2021 but rather than cost saving it will be just another development race.

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Phil
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... UFncL.html
Why is this rule being implemented now - and what impact will it have?
To assist policing. The FIA has to police a number of power unit parameters through very detailed data analysis, and it is felt that this directive will help them achieve that – and have more confidence of power unit legality as a result. Of course, a consequence of the move would be to clip the wings of the power unit which shows the biggest power boost between normal and qualifying modes. At this point that's believed to be Mercedes, with Ferrari showing the least difference between the two modes. Renault and Honda are quite similar in between those two extremes.
I find the underlined part to be quite interesting. Although if there are questions in regards to the legality, I would think the it would easily concern the race-modes as much as the qualifying mode - just that the race modes the effect is less pronounced because everyone is concerned about reliability and this narrows the gap between the more powerful engines and the lesser ones.
Not for nothing, Rosberg's Championship is the only thing that lends credibility to Hamilton's recent success. Otherwise, he'd just be the guy who's had the best car. — bhall II
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djos
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Argh, this is so stupid!

Why don’t they just take away all engine modes and let the drivers control the car with the accelerator like they do on other series like SuperCars and NASCAR!
"In downforce we trust"

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63l8qrrfy6
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Because F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of technology, not historic racing.

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henry
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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I agree entirely with @Mudflap. The teams will set about optimising for any new regime.

Equally interesting is that this will require the FIA to specify a feature they’ve never tackled before. What is a PU mode? It’s all very well arm waving with “Qualy mode is the powerful short duration one” and “Race mode is the long lasting Less powerful one” But what aspects of the operational parameters will they need to specify as fixed and how will monitor that they stay so. And will there be any loopholes?

Seems to me they will trade removing Multiplicity by adding Complexity. And when there’s complexity there are opportunities for confusion. As a new season change this would be difficult, mid season very problematical.
Fortune favours the prepared; she has no favourites and takes no sides.
Truth is confirmed by inspection and delay; falsehood by haste and uncertainty : Tacitus

Pany
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Mudflap wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:42
Because F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of technology, not historic racing.
Ti be honest, cars are freezed between quali and race. This is accepted since long time and is for many reasons a good rule. So I thing with the same principle it should be the same fo PU. Isn't it? Just coherence. Should have benn proposed before

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nzjrs
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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henry wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:45
I agree entirely with @Mudflap. The teams will set about optimising for any new regime.

Equally interesting is that this will require the FIA to specify a feature they’ve never tackled before. What is a PU mode? It’s all very well arm waving with “Qualy mode is the powerful short duration one” and “Race mode is the long lasting Less powerful one” But what aspects of the operational parameters will they need to specify as fixed and how will monitor that they stay so. And will there be any loopholes?

Seems to me they will trade removing Multiplicity by adding Complexity. And when there’s complexity there are opportunities for confusion. As a new season change this would be difficult, mid season very problematical.
I do wonder what telemetry the FIA has vs what the teams have. Teams instruct drivers to make settings changes which they can see themselves and confirm on the (detailed, not just GPS etc) telemetry - I presume the FIA has access to this too?

Is it 100% the same?

basti313
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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michl420 wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:23
For me this new rule is acceptable, but bring it in the middle of the year is bullshit. It is like saying we drive with a V6 and say before the first qualy of the year it is only allowed to use 5 of the 6 cylinder. And of course it is to slow mercedes down.
In the past TDs and slowing down of certain cars was ok, but now it hits Mercedes it is bad? The usual time was always middle of the season, please see the flexi wings, FRIC or the fuel flow last year as GOOD examples.
Don`t russel the hamster!

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63l8qrrfy6
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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nzjrs wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:49

I do wonder what telemetry the FIA has vs what the teams have. Teams instruct drivers to make settings changes which they can see themselves and confirm on the (detailed, not just GPS etc) telemetry - I presume the FIA has access to this too?

Is it 100% the same?
FIA requests particular channels they are interested in. These are the same for all teams and FIA have real time access to the them, but they are a tiny fraction of all the telemetry data teams get.
However the FIA can demand additional data as they see fit so in theory they can request access to all the telemetry data but in practice they do not have the resources (nor knowledge given the complexity of these PUs) to analyse it all.

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djos
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Mudflap wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:42
Because F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of technology, not historic racing.
Yeah but think of the benefits, no more turning down engines, drivers have full power from start to finish.
"In downforce we trust"

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RZS10
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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The main difference is that most (not all) of the previous TDs were clarifications of existing rules or clampdowns on obvious misinterpretations of the rules.

Of those three mentioned above:

Wings aren't supposed to flex - it's tested by doing X - wings still visibly flex - TD prohibits excessive flexing by mandating Y.
Perfectly fine.

There's a fuel flow limit - a team most likely cheats said limit - TD clarifies fuel flow limit rules and stops the circumvention of the rules.
Also fine.

FRIC was banned because a certain team had a better system than the others so the FIA issued a TD under the all encompassing "moveable aero" rule.
Kinda dirty.

Now we're at "we're too stupid to properly police the rules regarding the PU and PU operation and also *insert BS reasons*" ...

There also doesn't seem to be any real suspicion that Mercedes might be doing something illegal (contrary to Ferrari over the last few years) - and if there was, then surely the FIA could ask Mercedes to explain to them how their quali mode works and how it complies with the rules - just like they gave that chance to Ferrari.
Last edited by RZS10 on 14 Aug 2020, 11:03, edited 1 time in total.

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63l8qrrfy6
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Re: FIA wants to ban qualifying modes in 2021

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Pany wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:48
Mudflap wrote:
14 Aug 2020, 10:42
Because F1 is meant to be the pinnacle of technology, not historic racing.
Ti be honest, cars are freezed between quali and race. This is accepted since long time and is for many reasons a good rule. So I thing with the same principle it should be the same fo PU. Isn't it? Just coherence. Should have benn proposed before
My comment was directed at djos suggesting cable operated throttles or the like.

But to adress your point - it is the hardware that is frozen, yes. And the software is the same, just that different subsets of the same software are used between qualy and race. So how do you defined what is really frozen and what is not ?