2012 Brazilian GP - Interlagos

[beelsebob]

An engine is not thrown away because another is used ... engines are assigned a set of (usually 3) races that they must be used for. Often this means that different engines will be used for several races running, and that then the same set of engines will be rotated in again for another set of races.

Actually they may not rotate an engine in as you put it unless it is for Friday practise or the last race.

Yes, yes they may. Engines may be reused as much as the teams like. There is no "must be used in sequence" rule like there is for gearboxes. The rule is simple. 8 engines may be used, in total, for the year. No other restriction applies.

[ringo]

I think Alonso is under more pressure in this last race. He must podium or it's over!
Alonso getting a podium is ussualy down to having a good start, atrition, and some luck nowadays. I really think we may see a mental breakdown like the end to the 2010 season.
The redbull can easily start on front row, and it's quite easy for it to podium; even when it starts round the back.
Taking all this into account and the fact that Vettel has only to finish fourth, i really see Alonso going into this last race sweating bullets.
That podium spot and a poor Vettel performance seems like a longshot. Can't remember when last Vettel finshed below fourth and had no issues with the car or didnt have a complete failure.
I feel it's in the bag for vettel if Massa doesn't take the rb8 front wing off, or his alternator decides to give up the ghost.

I'd love to see Alonso take it however. I feel he deserves it and so does Ferrari. It wasn't a typo when i say ferrari deserve it. I really feel as a team Ferrari were the strongest over the season when it came to making tough decisions to keep Alonso fighting for wins and podiums. They are the best team in that regard. They give the number 1 driver all they can give and more. They take full advantage of the sporting regulations in the same way Newey takes full advantage of the technical regulations. I don't see why they don't deserve the title.

[type056]

Do Interlagos suit Ferrari better than last 2 track?

[beelsebob]

Do Interlagos suit Ferrari better than last 2 track?

Wet weather, if it happens, certainly will, if previous wet races this season have been anything to go by.

I wonder if them turning the Senna S into a car park will have meant that they've fixed the drainage, and stopped the river running across the track there.

[WhiteBlue]

An engine is not thrown away because another is used ... engines are assigned a set of (usually 3) races that they must be used for. Often this means that different engines will be used for several races running, and that then the same set of engines will be rotated in again for another set of races.

Actually they may not rotate an engine in as you put it unless it is for Friday practise or the last race.

Yes, yes they may. Engines may be reused as much as the teams like. There is no "must be used in sequence" rule like there is for gearboxes. The rule is simple. 8 engines may be used, in total, for the year. No other restriction applies.

You should read §28.e of the regulations!

28.4 a) Unless he drives for more than one team (see 28.4(b) below), each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used. If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at
the following Event. An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.
c) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine prior to it being used for the first time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced. Within two hours of the end of the post race parc fermé exhaust blanking plates (with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied to all used engines in order to ensure that these engines cannot be run between Events. Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial scrutineering at the next Event at which the engines are required. All such engines must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible to participate in the Event.
d) If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from an engine after it has been used for the first time that engine may not be used again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.
e) If an engine is changed in accordance with Article 34.1 the engine which was replaced may not be used during any future qualifying session or race with the exception of the last Event of the Championship.

[beelsebob]

Actually they may not rotate an engine in as you put it unless it is for Friday practise or the last race.

Yes, yes they may. Engines may be reused as much as the teams like. There is no "must be used in sequence" rule like there is for gearboxes. The rule is simple. 8 engines may be used, in total, for the year. No other restriction applies.

You should read §28.e of the regulations!

28.4 a) Unless he drives for more than one team (see 28.4(b) below), each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used. If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at
the following Event. An engine will be deemed to have been used once the car’s timing transponder has shown that it has left the pit lane.
b) If a driver is replaced at any time during the Championship season his replacement will be deemed to be the original driver for the purposes of assessing engine usage.
c) After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine prior to it being used for the first time at an Event in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced. Within two hours of the end of the post race parc fermé exhaust blanking plates (with one 10mm diameter inspection hole per cylinder) and further seals will be applied to all used engines in order to ensure that these engines cannot be run between Events. Upon request to the FIA these additional seals will be removed after the start of initial scrutineering at the next Event at which the engines are required. All such engines must remain within the team’s designated garage area when not fitted to a car and may not be started at any time during an Event other than when fitted to a car eligible to participate in the Event.
d) If any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from an engine after it has been used for the first time that engine may not be used again unless they were removed under FIA supervision.
e) If an engine is changed in accordance with Article 34.1 the engine which was replaced may not be used during any future qualifying session or race with the exception of the last Event of the Championship.

Rule 34.1 being about breaking parc ferme. Changing an engine does not break parc ferme unless the car is, well... in parc ferme.

Under normal (not parc ferme) regulations, you can swap engines back and forth as much as you like.

[JimClarkFan]

That isn't much of a question. He will handle the pressure exactly the same way he dealt with it after his engine failure in Korea 2010. Ignore everything around him and try to win every race. That is what he did this year as well.

Not sure how you can know this... given that this is a unique situation for him. He has no prior experience of entering the last race of a season defending a championship lead.

I am willing to bet he will be a bag of nerves, he has everything to lose, Alonso has nothing. Vettel has never been in that situation before, Alonso has been here several times.

[WhiteBlue]

Parc Ferme conditions and § 34.1 apply to all qualifying and race sessions. Hence 34.1 and 28.e always apply to all engines which have been used for a qualifying or race session. Most teams actually also cover FP3 with the dedicated race engines because the time is too short to conveniently change engines around between FP3 and qualifying.
Since when do you follow the engine usage? Probably not for very long. The applicability of §28.e played a big role in the 2010 season. It caused a big problem to Red Bull then when their Korea engine blew up before it had covered all the races they had planned.
The rule btw has not been changed in the last three seasons. You can check the regulations. Teams have never been allowed to change an engine back once they have taken it out between race and qualifying sessions with the exception of the last race. If you do not believe me we can have a dedicated thread about this.

[WhiteBlue]

I am willing to bet he will be a bag of nerves, he has everything to lose, Alonso has nothing. Vettel has never been in that situation before, Alonso has been here several times.

I rest my case. I'm not going to argue opinion.

[bhall]

[...]
Teams have never been allowed to change an engine back once they have taken it out between race and qualifying sessions with the exception of the last race. If you do not believe me we can have a dedicated thread about this.

That's great and all, but nobody was talking about engine changes in that regard. The question was about Vettel's engine status for Brazilian Grand Prix, not within the Brazilian Grand Prix.

EDIT: But, by the way, since when are cars in parc fermé at any time other than from the moment they leave the pits for Q1 until the start of the race? What's all this Friday business about?

[JimClarkFan]

I am willing to bet he will be a bag of nerves, he has everything to lose, Alonso has nothing. Vettel has never been in that situation before, Alonso has been here several times.

I rest my case. I'm not going to argue opinion.

Rest your case on what? What decisive point have you made that allows you to rest your case?

You gave your opinion and I gave mine, we will see whose opinion is closer to the mark this weekend.

[Red Schneider]

WB, I'm not interested in wading into a morass on this one, but suffice it to say that in sport there is often a material difference psychologically between protecting a lead and attacking from behind. Vettel may or may not choke, but JCF is not talking out of his ass on this one.

[JimClarkFan]

WB, I'm not interested in wading into a morass on this one, but suffice it to say that in sport there is often a material difference psychologically between protecting a lead and attacking from behind. Vettel may or may not choke, but JCF is not talking out of his ass on this one.

Thanks... I don't think I am talking out of my ass either lol

[WhiteBlue]

That's great and all, but nobody was talking about engine changes in that regard. The question was about Vettel's engine status for Brazilian Grand Prix, not within the Brazilian Grand Prix.

The issue was basically off topic and I only mentioned it because an inaccuracy was reported about the sporting regulations. The important fact is that Red Bull in any case can use whatever engine they want for the qualifying and race in Brazil because it is the last race.

But, by the way, since when are cars in parc fermé at any time other than from the moment they leave the pits for Q1 until the start of the race? What's all this Friday business about?

Cars are in parc ferme as well after the race until scrutineering and fitting of seals is done by the FiA. About the Friday business: For all other races except the last race there is a usual practise by the teams to fit old engines that will not be used for further races for FP1 and FP2 (Friday sessions). Those engines are then swapped out for the proper qualifying and race engine typically for FP3. Very seldom a team will change to the race engine after FP3 has started. That usually only happens when a fault is detected in an engine that was ear marked and fitted for the race.

[WhiteBlue]

WB, I'm not interested in wading into a morass on this one, but suffice it to say that in sport there is often a material difference psychologically between protecting a lead and attacking from behind. Vettel may or may not choke, but JCF is not talking out of his ass on this one.

Thanks... I don't think I am talking out of my ass either lol

I'm not talking of asses. I'm talking of opinions. Everbody is entitled to his own. I just don't happen to agree with yours about Vettel. And I have told you that a dispute about such opinions has very little value IMO. I'm sure you can find enough people who will love to argue with you. I simply don't.