Toto Wolf - Formula 1 should be leading the pack in sustainable fuels and biofuels instead of electric

[RedNEO]

Domenicali is also saying the same as Toto that F1 is shifting its focus away from electric onto sustainable synthetic/bio fuels..

https://v6dsseewh55yamhdvpyc6idqzq-adwh ... i/4928933/

This is the perfect opportunity for F1 to show you can have a high revving screaming engine that’s run on sustainable fuels with a virtually non existent carbon footprint unlike the production of batteries

It's all just talk to try and defend a botched route. As JAF indicates, the door to full electric is closed essentially, so they have to find an alternative and try to hype that. Doesn't mean it's actually a good alternative. Biofuels and Synfuels are just not that attractive for customer car applications. By far most commuting can be done with electric vehicles viably, and as battery tech develops, that range just extends. ICEs may have a longer life in medium/long-range transport, especially heavy transport, but there the link to F1 development is less direct, and with fuel cells, there are upcoming alternatives.

And sure, batteries take energy to produce, but battery tech improves (reducing energy input in production) ánd the used energy becomes ever more green. Also, biofuel takes quite some energy to produce, so a similar argument is applicable there. And what's more, there's only so much biomass to go around - way insufficient to fulfill the entire transportation market. Biofuels may have their niche-applications in areas where energy density is crucial (aviation), but aside from that, there are better alternatives. When it comes to SynFuel, there seems to be little incentive (aside from being able to use current infrastructure) to go to higher hydrocarbons which require a lot of C-C bonds to be made, and additional process steps generally go at the cost of efficiency of the storage cycle. So why bother? Use green energy to produce hydrogen, and use that directly - you can put it in a fuel cell, and storage is not really an issue in fields of decently predictable demand (e.g. transport). In fields where demand is more variable so medium/long-term storage is desired, or where a higher energy density is required, add one CO2 to create methanol or formic. Liquid, so easy to store, and again fuel-cell ready (with all due benefits in toxic/particulate emissions, too).

If you want to go for a series that's future tech relevant, either get a deal with FE or go for fuel cell tech. If you want noisy ICEs, fine. But then accept that it's going to be an entertainment sport, and don't pretend it's about tech development.

It’s actually the opposite. Bio-fuels and synthetic fuels are much more attractive in both customer cars and in the F1 application - just look at the facts. One already has the infrastructure in place, the cars can readily be converted to these new sustainable fuels without any effort and they don’t leave a carbon footprint to produce unlike the batteries which also can’t be recycled.

We have all read the numerous papers that say EVs will not reduce the carbon footprint. It will make it larger because, fundamentally an EV can not cover the lifespan of a fuel based vehicle where the benefit can be achieved. It takes around 3x the mileage life of a fuel based car to get any net benefit. Batteries simply don’t have an answer to compete with sustainable fuels and will not have the infrastructure in place to be able to pose any serious threat in the car industry. With F1 and the manufacturers backing its just going to get harder for batteries to compete with this, it’s over.

[NL_Fer]

COVID & working at home could actually change the future of EV. People will commute less and more (business) meetings will be done digital. This will result in a lower average usage of cars and this could make an EV less interesting.

Batteries will become better, cheaper, lighter, etc. But still this development has to be funded and buying/owning an EV will be more expensive. The running cost, maintenance & electricity will always be cheaper compared to a car running on (synthetic) fuel. In short, buying an EV is less interesting if the owner doesn’t drive allot. And this is already going on due to COVID-19.

Another thing, which owner is interested the milage of his Ferrari? A sportscar of supercar is never cheap to run. So why wouldn’t it be running on expensive synthetic fuel in the future?

[Tommy Cookers]

Do you know something we don't regarding batteries?

You're asking the wrong question. The issue isn't a technical one, it's a political one. ICE will increasingly be marginalised and then banned by politicians in response to climate change pressure. The initial salvos in this have already been fired.

If you can make synthetic alcohol based fuels than have similar power density to gasoline they'll burn cleaner and reduce pollution.

And the feed stock for this fuel comes from where? Are we going to run cars on fuel made from land that should be growing food?

the UK Prime Minister tips politics towards EVs because he likes easy votes and likes his hot new greeny girlfriend

apart from Just_a_fan everyone including the FIA etc is concerned only with 2nd generation biofuels .....
that means biofuels made from food-related or non-food-related waste ...
ie biofuels that don't compete with food production
eg cellulosic feedstocks

[RedNEO]

And there is just no way a non recyclable battery that is produced in a dirty way will compete with the carbon neutral bio-fuels of today. It’s now a question of is it even worth keeping a battery for the new regs in 2025.

[NL_Fer]

It should have green hydrogen (from a renewable source) as a main component and air derived carbon as a major component. Otherwise it is useless. We cannot all land for biofuel production.

Also don’t remove the battery, the manufacturers need to showcase their electric technology also.

[RedNEO]

It should have green hydrogen (from a renewable source) as a main component and air derived carbon as a major component. Otherwise it is useless. We cannot all land for biofuel production.

Also don’t remove the battery, the manufacturers need to showcase their electric technology also.

The whole point of having these batteries was supposed to be about how clean they were ‘supposedly’ compared to petrol/diesel but now that’s out the window with carbon neutral bio-fuels that don’t add to the carbon footprint. You don’t need to showcase a non-recyclable battery that’s going to add to the carbon footprint.

[nzjrs]

Whats the LCA / carbon accounting look like for 2nd generation biofuels derived from food-waste or similar waste products? How does it compare with 1st gen or grown 2nd generation biofuels?

[Big Tea]

It should have green hydrogen (from a renewable source) as a main component and air derived carbon as a major component. Otherwise it is useless. We cannot all land for biofuel production.

Also don’t remove the battery, the manufacturers need to showcase their electric technology also.

SpaceX is apparently well advanced in a system using the Sabatier reaction to produce methane, and powered by wind generators which is said to be capable of powering all their space vehicles. There may well be another contender for planes if this is as successful as some think.

[RedNEO]

It should have green hydrogen (from a renewable source) as a main component and air derived carbon as a major component. Otherwise it is useless. We cannot all land for biofuel production.

Also don’t remove the battery, the manufacturers need to showcase their electric technology also.

SpaceX is apparently well advanced in a system using the Sabatier reaction to produce methane, and powered by wind generators which is said to be capable of powering all their space vehicles. There may well be another contender for planes if this is as successful as some think.

I’m not sure what SpaceX and it’s fans think a success is but if you look at the comments here and hear the clapping, apparently an explosion is a success..

[Big Tea]

It should have green hydrogen (from a renewable source) as a main component and air derived carbon as a major component. Otherwise it is useless. We cannot all land for biofuel production.

Also don’t remove the battery, the manufacturers need to showcase their electric technology also.

SpaceX is apparently well advanced in a system using the Sabatier reaction to produce methane, and powered by wind generators which is said to be capable of powering all their space vehicles. There may well be another contender for planes if this is as successful as some think.

I’m not sure what SpaceX and it’s fans think a success is but if you look at the comments here and hear the clapping, apparently an explosion is a success..

It was. There was a proclaimed 1 in 3 chance it would work, and all but the last 6 seconds, where a surge of fuel cut the engine it was flawless. It even put the hole in the right place R.U.D due to an engine Rich exhaust (rapid unscheduled disassembly)

[RedNEO]

SpaceX is apparently well advanced in a system using the Sabatier reaction to produce methane, and powered by wind generators which is said to be capable of powering all their space vehicles. There may well be another contender for planes if this is as successful as some think.

I’m not sure what SpaceX and it’s fans think a success is but if you look at the comments here and hear the clapping, apparently an explosion is a success..

It was. There was a proclaimed 1 in 3 chance it would work, and all but the last 6 seconds, where a surge of fuel cut the engine it was flawless. It even put the hole in the right place R.U.D due to an engine Rich exhaust (rapid unscheduled disassembly)

If you consider that a success I’d love to know what a failure looks like in your eyes? Personally when I hear the pilot in a commercial plane announcing it’s been a successful flight I’m not engulfed in a fireball but that’s just me.

[Big Tea]

I’m not sure what SpaceX and it’s fans think a success is but if you look at the comments here and hear the clapping, apparently an explosion is a success..

It was. There was a proclaimed 1 in 3 chance it would work, and all but the last 6 seconds, where a surge of fuel cut the engine it was flawless. It even put the hole in the right place R.U.D due to an engine Rich exhaust (rapid unscheduled disassembly)

If you consider that a success I’d love to know what a failure looks like in your eyes? Personally when I hear the pilot in a commercial plane announcing it’s been a successful flight I’m not engulfed in a fireball but that’s just me.

In comparative terms, that is like an unknown starting a new team in F1 and hammering Merc (NASA) Ferrari (Roscosmos) and Red Bull (China National Space Administration (CNSA))
and winning Le mans in their spare time.

You obviously do not follow it and this is not the thread to discuss it, but in future years you will probably wish you had followed it more closly.

[RedNEO]

It was. There was a proclaimed 1 in 3 chance it would work, and all but the last 6 seconds, where a surge of fuel cut the engine it was flawless. It even put the hole in the right place R.U.D due to an engine Rich exhaust (rapid unscheduled disassembly)

If you consider that a success I’d love to know what a failure looks like in your eyes? Personally when I hear the pilot in a commercial plane announcing it’s been a successful flight I’m not engulfed in a fireball but that’s just me.

In comparative terms, that is like an unknown starting a new team in F1 and hammering Merc (NASA) Ferrari (Roscosmos) and Red Bull (China National Space Administration (CNSA))
and winning Le mans in their spare time.

You obviously do not follow it and this is not the thread to discuss it, but in future years you will probably wish you had followed it more closly.

It’s not that I don’t recognise achievements, I used to follow them initially but you’re right let’s get back OT

[hollus]

On topic but not leaving Musk. Tesla is, supposedly, about to start recycling its own used batteries.
So not today, probably not in 5 years, but maybe in 10 years lithium batteries will go from “recyclable” to actually recyclable. Maybe.

[Big Tea]

On topic but not leaving Musk. Tesla is, supposedly, about to start recycling its own used batteries.
So not today, probably not in 5 years, but maybe in 10 years lithium batteries will go from “recyclable” to actually recyclable. Maybe.

He has mentioned a few times that the intention (for short term) is to re use batteries from vehicle into 'power walls' for home storage. a drop off of efficiency at home is not as noticeable as in a vehicle as you do not need to drag it around.

Also, splitting the difference between Tesla and SpaceX there is apparently abundant heavy metals in 'space rocks' such as astriods and the obvious place to make there batteries is in space.

Components such as batteries and motors from the cars are used on the Starship too. battery and motor for flaps etc.