Sucked wing idea

[manchild]

Holly s*** RB has something similar.

There are two pipelines, upper one fed by air, and lower one as you can see attached to airbox.

n_anirudh posted this pic in another topic, here is the enhanced version.



Look like they have system that does both blowing and sucking simultaneously.

[Pandamasque]

So far it seems to suck mostly. Otherwise they would keep it for the race.

[megz]

So far it seems to suck mostly. Otherwise they would keep it for the race.

I see what you did there

[mx_tifoso]

...

Look like they have system that does both blowing and sucking simultaneously.

Randy Mandy definitely has some skills up her sleeve! Luscious Liz couldn't suck nor blow.


MC, you should work for an F1 team instead of putting these ideas up on an F1 forum for free.

[F1_eng]

Absolutely lacking in any basic technical knowledge or common sense.

If you attempt to couple low airbox pressure to the top of the wing, you simply lower the Cp, simple. Lowering top surface Cp reduces net pressure differential, less downforce.

There are other basic flaws such as the assumption of airbox pressure variation.

Afraid its not a good idea in any sense.

[DaveW]

Absolutely lacking in any basic technical knowledge or common sense.

You know, F1_eng, comments like the one above are not constructive. They simply make a statement about you (with apologies).

Forums like this are sometimes entertaining, sometimes revealing &, just occasionally, contain brilliant ideas. By all means read them & draw your own conclusions, but I would suggest that you contribute only with constructive comments. I recall, years ago, hearing one very senior technical person in F1 observe that if 10 percent of ideas (from F1 engineers) actually worked, then they were in good shape. I can't think much has changed in that respect.

[marcush.]

Absolutely lacking in any basic technical knowledge or common sense.

You know, F1_eng, comments like the one above are not constructive. They simply make a statement about you (with apologies).

Forums like this are sometimes entertaining, sometimes revealing &, just occasionally, contain brilliant ideas. By all means read them & draw your own conclusions, but I would suggest that you contribute only with constructive comments. I recall, years ago, hearing one very senior technical person in F1 observe that if 10 percent of ideas (from F1 engineers) actually worked, then they were in good shape. I can't think much has changed in that respect.

=D> =D> =D>
i like floating around ideas .If it happens to be nonsense i have no issue with anyone pointing this out.The good point in that special idea was surely to use the engine suction for achieving aero effects .for me this is equally valid as using the exhaust for this..
but people are different .F1_eng has possibly not attended to any people management seminars and has no 20 mimosa to keep motivated in his engineering group..or maybe he has and is fed up with it....

[autogyro]

Holly s*** RB has something similar.

There are two pipelines, upper one fed by air, and lower one as you can see attached to airbox.

n_anirudh posted this pic in another topic, here is the enhanced version.



Look like they have system that does both blowing and sucking simultaneously.

Looks more like RB are blowing the boundery layer to increase DF on one and blowing the slot with the other.
IMO the size of the top feed tube is not big enough to properly stall the wing segment but it is just a guess.

[manchild]

Absolutely lacking in any basic technical knowledge or common sense.

If you attempt to couple low airbox pressure to the top of the wing, you simply lower the Cp, simple. Lowering top surface Cp reduces net pressure differential, less downforce.

There are other basic flaws such as the assumption of airbox pressure variation.

Afraid its not a good idea in any sense.

Slit could by no means reduce the pressure on top surface. I had im mind effect of suction as somthing that would change behavior or air flow over top surface.




Think of it as take vacuum cleaner's suction nozzle at certain angle, pointed in direction of car's movement. It would decrease drag and prevent air from slipping as more air would constantly hit top surface.

Perhaps the slit could be made in a gurney-flap sort of way.

[Belatti]

Absolutely lacking in any basic technical knowledge or common sense.

You know, F1_eng, comments like the one above are not constructive. They simply make a statement about you (with apologies).

=D> =D> =D>
i like floating around ideas

The important thing is Manchild had and idea and shared it. Be it feasible then COOL! and if not, others can build from it or can help Manchild to rethink about it and show its faults to finally achive some conclusion.

This is no more than a brainstormig where maybe 500 persons are thinking but only a few types in the forum.

[tc9604]

Couldn't one avoid the need for an 'active' vacuum pump by placing a venturi into something like the current F-duct pipe and tapping off the pressure through this way? Then it remains controllable by the driver.

[F1_eng]

manchild, I don't know what you are trying to say.

I have said it before, the only way these aerodynamic forces are transmitted to the car is through pressure or shear forces, end of story.

"I had im mind effect of suction as somthing that would change behavior or air flow over top surface. "

The above quote is simply saying that the pressure and shear forces on the wing surfaces change, and I am saying if you connect it up to a low pressure airbox, the static pressure on the upper element will decrease. Forget everything about how and what the device was, if you couple it up to a lower pressure region, the pressure will decrease, reducing downforce.

"Think of it as take vacuum cleaner's suction nozzle at certain angle, pointed in direction of car's movement. It would decrease drag and prevent air from slipping as more air would constantly hit top surface."

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, can you explain it with some formulas or numbers or what the basis of the principal is? What is the effect and how?
Are you looking at boundary layer extraction?

If you are trying to maximize airflow over the top surface, you will reduce overall downforce. The perfect scenario would be to have stagnant air on the upper surface with a Cp of 1.

[manchild]

"Think of it as take vacuum cleaner's suction nozzle at certain angle, pointed in direction of car's movement. It would decrease drag and prevent air from slipping as more air would constantly hit top surface."

I'm not sure what you are trying to say, can you explain it with some formulas or numbers or what the basis of the principal is?

I'm not a pro so I couldn't give you formulas better than this one.



In one of previous posts I wrote that engines suction of air trough airbox results in force that is equal of pushing the car forward, since airbox is pointed in the direction of car's movement. Same thing would happen on rear wing if it would have a slit opened in the direction of car's movement.

What is the effect and how? Are you looking at boundary layer extraction?

Exactly, but since I'm not a pro I didn't dare to mention boundary layer. I think this would if not eliminate it than significantly reduce it, and increase wings performance, especially on low DF circuits.

So you see, that is why we amateurs come here, to share ideas with the world, and hear opinion of the pros.

Check the last gif I've made, I can't see how in that specific arrangement it would reduce pressure on top.

[F1_eng]

I'm sorry but I can't see the logic in this. The reaction forces from this kind of situation are very small. Think what would happen if the car was sat still and the engine was at full revs, the car wouldn't move due to these reaction forces.

That last image shows low static pressure "sucking" the air from the top side of the wing, this has to be lower pressure to promote flow.Since air is now being pulled accross the top wing element quicker, the static pressure in this region has to drop since Ptot=Pstatic + Pdynamic. This will reduce the net downforce on the wing.

There are plenty of useful and interesting things that could be done by using airbox pressures and various flows but it isn't what I am spending my time on now and I know it would end up taking a lot of my time if I were to start looking in to all of this.

The way I would approach this kind of idea/brainstorm is to firstly think what is happening in the airbox at different conditions e.g (high revs-low car speed), (high revs-high car speed) etc.
You can then begin to know what the conditions are at various stages. Without data, you can assume that the airbox pressure at high revs and low car speed will be significantly lower than at high revs high car speeds.

There are some really interesting things you can do with engine braking and throttle strategy but they would require track testing and there isn't time to do this without in-season testing. If you are blowing the exhaust in to the diffuser for example, what would be the best options in terms of off throttle strategy.

I hope things are a little clearer manchild, but some thought in terms of first principles is useful when thinking up concepts. You firstly need to know what you are trying to achieve rather than how, it seems here you have worked out how to achieve something but it's not something you want to achieve.

Good luck.

[megz]

Semi serious idea, what if the driver had a second straw to suck/blow air in which was connected into the fluidics to influence the air flow/pressure rather than using parts of the body to close other channels?

Fairly certain the driver may not have the strength to make a huge difference but should the pressures required to stall the wing be very close to critical they could just make the difference?