2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[siskue2005]

No this season showed that Lewis was very close to being lucky to win the championship after his team destroyed Max's car twice and once by Pirelli for a total of 26+18+16 points.

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No this season shows that Max can only win with the help of FIA/Masi i.e Brazil, saudi, abudabhi, monza (15+18+7+10)
and Baku was redbulls fault so -26.

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These words can only come from a Lewis fan.
And that the tire exploded in Baku was RBR fault?
Yes, that's why Pirelli immediately made different tires for everyone. Because RBR made a fault.
Naughty RBR, never do it again. Max could have died in that accident if he went the other way!

Formula 1’s tyre supplier Pirelli say an investigation into the left-rear tyre failures suffered by both Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix demonstrated there was “no production or quality defect” on any of the tyres “nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination”.

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

Following the investigation, Pirelli submitted their report to all 10 teams as well as governing body the FIA and issued a new set of protocols which will come into force at this weekend’s race in France.

“The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions,” added Pirelli.

Offical statement by pirelli
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QIvY5.html

[KeiKo403]

@siskue2005 - That response coupled with your avatar....amazing!

[Wouter]

Pirelli indicated at the time that they may have miscalculated the tire pressure themselves and misjudged what the tires had to endure on this track. I'm trying to find this statement, meanwhile I found this.

Pirelli confirm teams not to blame for Baku tyre failures following investigation
2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix

In a statement issued today Formula 1’s official tyre supplier said: “There was no production or quality defect on any of the tyres; nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination. The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.

However F1 has updated a key technical directive for this weekend giving the FIA new powers to check teams’ tyre pressures and blanket temperatures during sessions.
Isola said this has been imposed because the Baku failures occured as the tyres were running in different conditions to those Pirelli expected based on their starting pressures.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions and that created the failure,” he said.

“The failure was a circumferential cut on the inside shoulder – for both the tyres it was the same failure mode. When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres with a pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre and at a certain point the tyre breaks. And that is what happened and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”

[DChemTech]

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No this season shows that Max can only win with the help of FIA/Masi i.e Brazil, saudi, abudabhi, monza (15+18+7+10)
and Baku was redbulls fault so -26.

.
These words can only come from a Lewis fan.
And that the tire exploded in Baku was RBR fault?
Yes, that's why Pirelli immediately made different tires for everyone. Because RBR made a fault.
Naughty RBR, never do it again. Max could have died in that accident if he went the other way!

Formula 1’s tyre supplier Pirelli say an investigation into the left-rear tyre failures suffered by both Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix demonstrated there was “no production or quality defect” on any of the tyres “nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination”.

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

Following the investigation, Pirelli submitted their report to all 10 teams as well as governing body the FIA and issued a new set of protocols which will come into force at this weekend’s race in France.

“The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions,” added Pirelli.

Offical statement by pirelli
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QIvY5.html

I love how you highlight the part that undermines your own claim

[Ryar]

@siskue2005 - That response coupled with your avatar....amazing!

FYI. For personal appreciations, you can PM the individual. Thanks.

[Ryar]

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These words can only come from a Lewis fan.
And that the tire exploded in Baku was RBR fault?
Yes, that's why Pirelli immediately made different tires for everyone. Because RBR made a fault.
Naughty RBR, never do it again. Max could have died in that accident if he went the other way!

Formula 1’s tyre supplier Pirelli say an investigation into the left-rear tyre failures suffered by both Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix demonstrated there was “no production or quality defect” on any of the tyres “nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination”.

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

Following the investigation, Pirelli submitted their report to all 10 teams as well as governing body the FIA and issued a new set of protocols which will come into force at this weekend’s race in France.

“The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions,” added Pirelli.

Offical statement by pirelli
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QIvY5.html

I love how you highlight the part that undermines your own claim

Absolutely! I had to read it multiple times to make sure that.

[Wouter]

Formula 1’s tyre supplier Pirelli say an investigation into the left-rear tyre failures suffered by both Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix demonstrated there was “no production or quality defect” on any of the tyres “nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination”.

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified. In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.”

Following the investigation, Pirelli submitted their report to all 10 teams as well as governing body the FIA and issued a new set of protocols which will come into force at this weekend’s race in France.

“The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions,” added Pirelli.

Offical statement by pirelli
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QIvY5.html

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I love how you highlight the part that undermines your own claim

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Absolutely! I had to read it multiple times to make sure that.

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I read it multiple times too and asked myself: Is my English so bad?

" ....in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature)
having been followed." Inspite says it all.

So, this is nonsense:

... and Baku was redbulls fault so -26.

[siskue2005]

.
These words can only come from a Lewis fan.
And that the tire exploded in Baku was RBR fault?
Yes, that's why Pirelli immediately made different tires for everyone. Because RBR made a fault.
Naughty RBR, never do it again. Max could have died in that accident if he went the other way!

Formula 1’s tyre supplier Pirelli say an investigation into the left-rear tyre failures suffered by both Lance Stroll and Max Verstappen in the Azerbaijan Grand Prix demonstrated there was “no production or quality defect” on any of the tyres “nor was there any sign of fatigue or delamination”.

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified.........which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, .”

Following the investigation, Pirelli submitted their report to all 10 teams as well as governing body the FIA and issued a new set of protocols which will come into force at this weekend’s race in France.

“The FIA and Pirelli have agreed a new set of the protocols, including an upgraded technical directive already distributed, for monitoring operating conditions during a race weekend and they will consider any other appropriate actions,” added Pirelli.

Offical statement by pirelli
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... QIvY5.html

I love how you highlight the part that undermines your own claim

“The causes of the two left-rear tyre failures on the Aston Martin and Red Bull cars have been clearly identified.........which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, .”

So "running conditions of the tyre" pirelli states that its the way the team and driver run it, rather than any fault in the tyres or tyre pressure!

You know there are other conditions like suspension, wings, driving over kerbs etc


There was also rumours redbull were reducing the tyre pressure

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/86512/re ... races.html

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

Pirelli: Red Bull, Aston Martin F1 teams were running with lower pressuresRed Bull and Aston Martin were running with lower pressures than expected in Formula 1’s Azerbaijan Grand Prix, Pirelli said on Thursday, but did not break any rules.
However, it appears that the tyres on Aston Martin and Red Bull did not experience such a raise in pressure in Baku and were therefore running at a lower level than Pirelli anticipated.

By running below the pressure that Pirelli expected, it meant the standing waves being caused by the high-speed Baku corners were enough to trigger the failure on the inside shoulders of Verstappen and Stroll’s left rear tyres.

[KeiKo403]

in spite of the prescribed starting parameters having been followed...

The team can still conform to Pirelli's starting pressures/temps whilst being able to manipulate those figures during a race.
Imagine a cars rear wing twisting backwards at high speed, it was built to pass the FIA tests, not fulfil the 'non-moveable aero' rules.

[mrluke]

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I love how you highlight the part that undermines your own claim

.
Absolutely! I had to read it multiple times to make sure that.

.
I read it multiple times too and asked myself: Is my English so bad?

" ....in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature)
having been followed." Inspite says it all.

So, this is nonsense:

... and Baku was redbulls fault so -26.

Pirelli mandate starting pressures because the mid race pressures aren't measured. They set a starting pressure to achieve an expected "race" pressure.

In the case of the two teams with failures, their race pressures were lower than Pirelli expected, there was a smaller gap between cold and hot pressures than the other teams had.

This is why the rules around starting tyre pressures and temps were changed following this weekend.

So yes, ultimately it was a pirelli tyre that failed but RBR were gaming the regs to run the tyres outside of their window.

[DChemTech]

in spite of the prescribed starting parameters having been followed...

The team can still conform to Pirelli's starting pressures/temps whilst being able to manipulate those figures during a race.
Imagine a cars rear wing twisting backwards at high speed, it was built to pass the FIA tests, not fulfil the 'non-moveable aero' rules.

Not this again. The tests are there (or should be there) to check if you fulfill the rules. passing tests == abiding the rules. If that is not the case, it means there are hidden or qualitative/subjective regulations that an engineer cannot be expected to meet. The teams should not be blamed for poor rule-writing from the FIA side (yet they were, which just as well potentially impacted the championship).

Anyway, that's a tangent we explored too often already. The crux here was that the quote said "in spite of prescribed starting parameters having been followed", which means RB did nothing wrong, thus undermining Siskue's claim.

[siskue2005]

in spite of the prescribed starting parameters having been followed...

The team can still conform to Pirelli's starting pressures/temps whilst being able to manipulate those figures during a race.
Imagine a cars rear wing twisting backwards at high speed, it was built to pass the FIA tests, not fulfil the 'non-moveable aero' rules.

Not this again. The tests are there (or should be there) to check if you fulfill the rules. passing tests == abiding the rules. If that is not the case, it means there are hidden or qualitative/subjective regulations that an engineer cannot be expected to meet. The teams should not be blamed for poor rule-writing from the FIA side (yet they were, which just as well potentially impacted the championship).

Anyway, that's a tangent we explored too often already. The crux here was that the quote said "in spite of prescribed starting parameters having been followed", which means RB did nothing wrong, thus undermining Siskue's claim.

No it cements my claim!

Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

Hence it was the team's fault! If they run in grey area, thats absolutely the team's fault... if the flexy wings break off if its flexes too much then its the team's fault who pushed the boundaries... its the same with mercedes engine which was pushed to the boundaries and it blew up and cost huge points for merc, so is that rule maker's fault that merc engines blew up?

[DChemTech]

in spite of the prescribed starting parameters having been followed...

The team can still conform to Pirelli's starting pressures/temps whilst being able to manipulate those figures during a race.
Imagine a cars rear wing twisting backwards at high speed, it was built to pass the FIA tests, not fulfil the 'non-moveable aero' rules.

Not this again. The tests are there (or should be there) to check if you fulfill the rules. passing tests == abiding the rules. If that is not the case, it means there are hidden or qualitative/subjective regulations that an engineer cannot be expected to meet. The teams should not be blamed for poor rule-writing from the FIA side (yet they were, which just as well potentially impacted the championship).

Anyway, that's a tangent we explored too often already. The crux here was that the quote said "in spite of prescribed starting parameters having been followed", which means RB did nothing wrong, thus undermining Siskue's claim.

No it cements my claim!

Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

Hence it was the team's fault! If they run in grey area, thats absolutely the team's fault... if the flexy wings break off if its flexes too much then its the team's fault who pushed the boundaries... its the same with mercedes engine which was pushed to the boundaries and it blew up and cost huge points for merc, so is that rule maker's fault that merc engines blew up?

Those are different things. The teams make the wings and engines. If they fail because they are pushing boundaries (while still being within the rules, mind you!), it's their fault. The teams don't make the tires. If they abide to the starting parameters that Pirelli provided, which your claim directly states, they are not to blame for failure. Note that I am not blaming Pirelli either, by the way. I don't think blame needs to be cast.

[NathanOlder]

It's not about who won. It's about Masi adlibbing the application of the rules in a way that no one could have planned for. If all cars had been unlapped, or no cars had been unlapped, as in the rules, then if Max had still won no one would have complained. The issue is simply with the way that Masi did the unlapping because it was contrary to the rules as written and as understood by every team up until that point in time.

If Mercedes had known that Masi would do what he did, they would have pitted Hamilton just as Red Bull pitted Max. And then we'd have had a ding-dong last lap with both on fresh tyres. Game on, may the best man win.

As it happened, Hamilton - who had basically won the race right up until Masi made up hiw own rules - didn't pit because no one - not even Red Bull - expected Masi to do what he did.

It's not the result that annoys people (not even Hamilton fans), it's Masi's "make it up as go along" methodology that annoys people. And that's not just Hamilton fans, please note, but lots of others too including other drivers.

There is no use in explaining everything.. some people dont want to know the truth, they just want to justify Max's championship... which they themself know was not the right way to win, hence finding justification like "the season is 22 races not 1 race" "silverstone crash" "bottas hungary crash" yada yada

I'm quite happy that Max won. He won more races during the season, for example, and did have 1 more DNF than Lewis.

It would have been 9 wins each if not for the --- show in Abu Dhabi, so its not like Max won more races on merit.

[KeiKo403]

This is way off topic now but I believe it was also Wheatley that race (Baku) who suggested to Masi that the race should be Red Flagged.
Not to allow marshals to clean up without cars going around but so they could keep Perez in P1 with a fresh set of tyres, "so everyone can change tyres"