2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

[Jolle]

Not this again. The tests are there (or should be there) to check if you fulfill the rules. passing tests == abiding the rules. If that is not the case, it means there are hidden or qualitative/subjective regulations that an engineer cannot be expected to meet. The teams should not be blamed for poor rule-writing from the FIA side (yet they were, which just as well potentially impacted the championship).

Anyway, that's a tangent we explored too often already. The crux here was that the quote said "in spite of prescribed starting parameters having been followed", which means RB did nothing wrong, thus undermining Siskue's claim.

No it cements my claim!

Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

Hence it was the team's fault! If they run in grey area, thats absolutely the team's fault... if the flexy wings break off if its flexes too much then its the team's fault who pushed the boundaries... its the same with mercedes engine which was pushed to the boundaries and it blew up and cost huge points for merc, so is that rule maker's fault that merc engines blew up?

Those are different things. The teams make the wings and engines. If they fail because they are pushing boundaries (while still being within the rules, mind you!), it's their fault. The teams don't make the tires. If they abide to the starting parameters that Pirelli provided, which your claim directly states, they are not to blame for failure. Note that I am not blaming Pirelli either, by the way. I don't think blame needs to be cast.

The team doesn't make the tires indeed, but if they run them outside their parameter, like to much camber, lower pressure or for simply to long, it is the teams responsibility when they go boom.

[Just_a_fan]

There is no use in explaining everything.. some people dont want to know the truth, they just want to justify Max's championship... which they themself know was not the right way to win, hence finding justification like "the season is 22 races not 1 race" "silverstone crash" "bottas hungary crash" yada yada

I'm quite happy that Max won. He won more races during the season, for example, and did have 1 more DNF than Lewis.

It would have been 9 wins each if not for the --- show in Abu Dhabi, so its not like Max won more races on merit.

Yeah, but one can play coulda shoulda woulda on a number of things on both sides through the season. Either driver would have been a worthy champion.

[Ryar]

No it cements my claim!

Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

Hence it was the team's fault! If they run in grey area, thats absolutely the team's fault... if the flexy wings break off if its flexes too much then its the team's fault who pushed the boundaries... its the same with mercedes engine which was pushed to the boundaries and it blew up and cost huge points for merc, so is that rule maker's fault that merc engines blew up?

Those are different things. The teams make the wings and engines. If they fail because they are pushing boundaries (while still being within the rules, mind you!), it's their fault. The teams don't make the tires. If they abide to the starting parameters that Pirelli provided, which your claim directly states, they are not to blame for failure. Note that I am not blaming Pirelli either, by the way. I don't think blame needs to be cast.

The team doesn't make the tires indeed, but if they run them outside their parameter, like to much camber, lower pressure or for simply to long, it is the teams responsibility when they go boom.

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

[siskue2005]

Those are different things. The teams make the wings and engines. If they fail because they are pushing boundaries (while still being within the rules, mind you!), it's their fault. The teams don't make the tires. If they abide to the starting parameters that Pirelli provided, which your claim directly states, they are not to blame for failure. Note that I am not blaming Pirelli either, by the way. I don't think blame needs to be cast.

The team doesn't make the tires indeed, but if they run them outside their parameter, like to much camber, lower pressure or for simply to long, it is the teams responsibility when they go boom.

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

No thats what you want to hear
But
Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

[Ryar]

The team doesn't make the tires indeed, but if they run them outside their parameter, like to much camber, lower pressure or for simply to long, it is the teams responsibility when they go boom.

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

No thats what you want to hear
But
Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

They calculated the probable running conditions wrong in their simulations, despite following their own given instructions. That's what happened. If Pirelii pays attention to every single team's needs, not just of Mercedes, things would be better.

[_cerber1]

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

As far as I remember, RB were able to outsmart the Pirellis with tire pressure. They somehow used the temperature of the brakes and discs, which influenced the reading of the pressure sensor, after the pilot left the pits, the tire pressure changed. So, in fact, the RB did not follow the instructions of Pirelli.

[Ryar]

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

As far as I remember, RB were able to outsmart the Pirellis with tire pressure. They somehow used the temperature of the brakes and discs, which influenced the reading of the pressure sensor, after the pilot left the pits, the tire pressure changed. So, in fact, the RB did not follow the instructions of Pirelli.

"Outsmart". In my opinion, even my 60 year old car driver can potentially outsmart pirelli. That's my hypothesis. It never happened in F1 that, such a clueless, incompetent tyre provider lasted more than a decade.

[_cerber1]

"Outsmart". In my opinion, even my 60 year old car driver can potentially outsmart pirelli. That's my hypothesis. It never happened in F1 that, such a clueless, incompetent tyre provider lasted more than a decade.

I don't think it's a direct task of Pirelli to control the parameters, this should be dealt with by the FIA, they only give their recommendations.

[AeroDynamic]

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

No thats what you want to hear
But
Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

They calculated the probable running conditions wrong in their simulations, despite following their own given instructions. That's what happened. If Pirelii pays attention to every single team's needs, not just of Mercedes, things would be better.

can you explain where you are getting all this from? are you a former employee of Pirelli?

[siskue2005]

There is a difference between hypothesis and facts. The fact is, as Pirelli reported, teams didn't do anything wrong. Just the quality of the tyres was bad as usual. They had no idea, despite adhering to their own given parameters, their product still fails. Not surprising though.

No thats what you want to hear
But
Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

They calculated the probable running conditions wrong in their simulations, despite following their own given instructions. That's what happened. If Pirelii pays attention to every single team's needs, not just of Mercedes, things would be better.

Please read the above article completely
Its pirelli saying that redbull and am were indeed running lower tyre pressure while ON track. This is why their tyre exploded! And it was not against regulations according to pirelli. ... but it was indeed only these two teams who were lowering the tyre pressure while running on track, and hence the failure.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

He added: “We assume that they are running at a certain pressure, and a certain camber. And with a margin on it, of course, we run in a condition that is OK for the tyre.

“In that case, we didn't achieve these conditions, not because teams were doing something against the regulations, but because they were looking as usual for performance, and that created a different scenario to what we were expecting. And the different scenario was that mainly the tyres were running at a lower pressure compared to expectation.”

So whatever redbull and AM were doing for performance has lead to the failure.

So thats the condition they were talking about, the condition where these 2 teams were lowering the tyre pressure... the above paragraph shows that exact thing. So it was indeed the team's fault their tyres exploded.


Its changing next year
However, that is changing for next year when teams must run with a standard pressure sensor as part of F1’s new rules era.

“If the regulation is not written that there is a running pressure that you have to respect, I cannot say that they were doing something against the regulation in their search of more performance," continued Isola.

“If they respect the starting pressure, they are complying with the regulation. If the same happens next year when we, with the standard sensor, impose a running pressure, in that case they are against the regulations. But this is not the case this year.”

Isola said it was not really a surprise that teams were pushing the margins on tyre pressures, as he suggested the spread between teams on running pressures in Baku was more than one Psi.

“Each team is looking for performance,” he said. “They are here racing, they are not here just to cruise on track. And that means that, looking for performance, we know that if you go with a bit lower pressure, you get some performance.”



So whatever redbull and AM were doing was for performance, they were pushing the boundaries and its their fault that it failed

[bosyber]

No thats what you want to hear
But
Just read what pirelli said in the following race
Speaking to media at the French Grand Prix, Pirelli's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola confirmed that both teams were running with tyres outside of what Pirelli had expected.

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

“Standing waves are putting a lot of energy into the inside shoulder of the tyre. And, at a certain point, the tyre breaks. That is what happened, and the reason why we had this situation in Baku.”
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/pirel ... s/6579094/

“What happened in Baku is simply that the running conditions expected were different compared to the actual running conditions - and that created the failure,” he said.

They calculated the probable running conditions wrong in their simulations, despite following their own given instructions. That's what happened. If Pirelii pays attention to every single team's needs, not just of Mercedes, things would be better.

Please read the above article completely
Its pirelli saying that redbull and am were indeed running lower tyre pressure while ON track. This is why their tyre exploded! And it was not against regulations according to pirelli. ... but it was indeed only these two teams who were lowering the tyre pressure while running on track, and hence the failure.

“When you have a lot of energy going into the tyres, with the pressure that is lower compared to the expectation, the result is that on the sidewall you have what we call standing waves.

He added: “We assume that they are running at a certain pressure, and a certain camber. And with a margin on it, of course, we run in a condition that is OK for the tyre.

“In that case, we didn't achieve these conditions, not because teams were doing something against the regulations, but because they were looking as usual for performance, and that created a different scenario to what we were expecting. And the different scenario was that mainly the tyres were running at a lower pressure compared to expectation.”

So whatever redbull and AM were doing for performance has lead to the failure.

So thats the condition they were talking about, the condition where these 2 teams were lowering the tyre pressure... the above paragraph shows that exact thing. So it was indeed the team's fault their tyres exploded.


Its changing next year
However, that is changing for next year when teams must run with a standard pressure sensor as part of F1’s new rules era.

“If the regulation is not written that there is a running pressure that you have to respect, I cannot say that they were doing something against the regulation in their search of more performance," continued Isola.

“If they respect the starting pressure, they are complying with the regulation. If the same happens next year when we, with the standard sensor, impose a running pressure, in that case they are against the regulations. But this is not the case this year.”

Isola said it was not really a surprise that teams were pushing the margins on tyre pressures, as he suggested the spread between teams on running pressures in Baku was more than one Psi.

“Each team is looking for performance,” he said. “They are here racing, they are not here just to cruise on track. And that means that, looking for performance, we know that if you go with a bit lower pressure, you get some performance.”



So whatever redbull and AM were doing was for performance, they were pushing the boundaries and its their fault that it failed

I agree with most of that though a small addendum, make it

but it was indeed only these two teams who were lowering the tyre pressure to this amount while running on track while the others did not do/manage that to the same extent, and hence the failure.

That seems to be closer to the truth. Yes Pirelli were definitely saying those teams did at least partially have their own choice to blame, and they also say that they themselves didn't expect that to happen to the extent found, but also that they wouldn't have expected it to be as dangerous as it happened to be so I wouldn't quite say purely the teams own fault. One might even speculate that the red flag was also thrown so that teams might up the pressure in their new tyres a bit to be on the safe side, though we have little to base that on.

Finally, I don't think it is a coincidence that Red Bull, usually not known for letting things lie especially where it is about (perceived) injustice to themselves, didn't mention they tyres much in combination with Baku for the rest of the season. Yes, commentators and especially Max fans keep bringing up Baku as misfortune for Verstappen, which is fair enough, but the team didn't blame Pirelli even if they did mention Baku. So, anyone can make of that what they will, but it does to me signal that Red Bull know they had a role to play there. Aston Martin also didn't much talk about it either after all, did they.

Anyway, all pretty off topic for this race.

[dans79]

For those with short term or selective memory's it was untimely determined that as usual in F1, teams figured how to game the tire pressure tests. Thus, new tests were introduced to all but grantee the tests can't be gamed for an advantage.

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/15/ext ... -in-spain/


edit:
We had an entire thread about it.
viewtopic.php?t=29899

[Csmith1980]

More doubt cast over Massi’s decision making. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60318052

Seems very much like he did what Redbull instructed him too and even mirrored their language when communicating with Mercedes.

[AeroDynamic]

More doubt cast over Massi’s decision making. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60318052

Seems very much like he did what Redbull instructed him too and even mirrored their language when communicating with Mercedes.

Yes, he was lobbied into breaking the rules, his thought process did not come from himself. Like I said in an earlier post, the man was weak af in his role. He didn't have a grip of the rules and regs, and he got completely owned by JW in Spa.

It's clear for me, an unhealthy lobbying dynamic developed between them, where JW psychologically had him beaten. If he challenged Masi and told him how to do his job, he was more likely to cave in.

its laughable that the 'motor race toto' quip was as it turned out, a spoon fed answer concocted from JW's lobbying.

The championship was decided by stewards and corrupt lobbying antics that should've never had anywhere near the influence they did on the race director. But, Ultimately he is to blame for not raising this issue until its too late, and being too much of a people pleaser. It all goes back to '19 with 'letting them race' turning into 'let em crash'

[Wouter]

More doubt cast over Massi’s decision making. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/60318052

Seems very much like he did what Redbull instructed him too and even mirrored their language when communicating with Mercedes.

.
Masi only took out the cars between Lewis and Max and not the other stragglers.
Where in this article does it say that Redbull instructed him to do it that way?