Belgian GP 2008

[Ciro Pabón]

... The weight of opinion definitely seems to be behind McLaren...

Well, it depends who you ask. So far, it seems that emotions are running high. Nobody has shown telemetry about Hamilton throttle.

On the british side, fans are enraged, that's true. Here you have a sample of headlines, headlines that I think are bringing a lot of people to this thread:

- Times: "put the cork back, Lewis: you actually came third"
- Sun: "I did nothing wrong"
- Daily Mirror: "Chicanery" - "stewards strip Lewis of victory"
- The Independent: "Farcical"
- Daily Mail: "Robbed of victory"
- Daily Telegraph: "Bitter end - Spa drama"
- Daily Express: "Highway Robbery, Lewis"
- Daily Star: "Lew rage at race robbery" - "Lewis wins’n loses"

On the other hand:

Gazzeta dello Sport poll (Votes: 53684. Another 50000 emotional people, I think):

- Giusto, l'inglese ha tratto un vantaggio nel sorpasso di Raikkonen
72.9%
(Just, the briton has got an advantage overtaking Raikkonen)

- Sbagliato, l'inglese non ha commesso scorrettezze
27.1%
(Unjust, the englishman did nothing wrong)

Alonso: "The FIA decided to change (the system) after several big scandals during past seasons. This year, if you do something wrong, you pay. I touched a painted line in Valencia and I got a 10,000 Euros fine. The decision to change (the system) was done with very good judgement, because in the past four of five years, there were always surprises. You never knew what they were going to do."

Massa: "It is true that for good races you need good overtaking, but there is overtaking and then there's overtaking. He did not have the patience to wait for another corner and try again, and the rules say he should be penalised."

Last quote:

"And in this traitor world
there is nothing truth nor lie
everything is according to the colour
of the glass you use to watch it"

-- Ramón de Campoamor, Doloras y Humoradas --

[mcdenife]

Both massa (understandably) and Alonso are wrong. The rules categorically do not say he should wait another corner. Plus the FIA has not "decided to change any system" and that is precisely point. In fact Alonso himself, despite differences he might have with LH, should be the first to denounce this, given he himself has been a victim of these inconsistencies. Plus it is not just British fans who are enraged. AFAIK, the outrage is universal and has very little to do with LH personally. Frankly I was still very outraged by Heikki's penalty, not because his pass Webber was not clumsy but because it was unjustified when looked at in the context of how many similarly clumsy moves, this season alone, have gone unpunished. If you Remove LH from the equation and look at it objectively, the chicane cutting itself should/would not even have been questioned. I am yet to hear/see any comment from any of these people regarding what happened in Valencia (which may probably be due to the resentment they still habour towards LH bcos of the perceptions that still exist that he has had it easy or that he has not served a 'proper apprentiship....who the eff knows). I think the most surprising and uninformed has been Bourdais's. To paint this as an anti Mclaren conspiracy is like trying to "paint this nice", evade the real issue or muddy the waters. At issue is that the one thing the FIA has been consistent at is dodgy rulings/changes which ALWAYS seem to disadvantage ANY/ALL teams with a very realistic chance of challenging ONE PARTICULAR team for the championship.

[timbo]

Both massa (understandably) and Alonso are wrong.......................................I think the most surprising and uninformed has been Bourdais's...............................

OK, OK
Don't you think it is a bit pathetic to call the opinion of CURRENT F1 drivers (not limited to Alonso, Massa and Bourdais, you should add Trulli and Rosberg too) wrong? Or presume you are somehow better "informed" than Bourdais?

[Badmon]

I am a racing fan first... Then a fan of Hamiltons second. I dont care if you like Ferrari or Mclaren, anyone with a quarter of a brain could clearly see that Hamilton was avoiding a crash with Kimi. As a matter of fact he arrived at the chicane slightly before Kimi. Kimi just held the line and shut the door on Lewis, a brilliant move. Now while cutting thru the chicane Hamilton was not full throttle. Hamilton did give the position back to Kimi. Imagine Hamilton not slowing down and giving the position back to Kimi.. he would have been so far ahead. During the closing laps Hamilton was cutting Kimi's lead down big tyme, had it not rain it would have been over for Kimi, the fact that it did kind of even it out (both on dry tires).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

U be the Judge.!!

FIA needs to take the red shades off!

[Belatti]

In that video, my eyes see kimi taking advantage from asphalt runoff areas in pouhon, but the rules says nothing about it

[Rob W]

In that video, my eyes see kimi taking advantage from asphalt runoff areas in pouhon

100%. Now that I've seen Kimi's in-car footage it is clear he chose to drive all of the way around - he didn't even attempt to come back on track and was going probably 50-75kmh faster than if he had.

R

[Badmon]

This is the footage the stewards need to view.

[captainmorgan]

nevermind, i was about to post a long 2 cents but corrected myself

[Badmon]

^^^^

[Badmon]

nevermind, i was about to post a long 2 cents but corrected myself

Please feel free to do so.

[Ray]

And I quote the wonderfully disgusting William J. Clinton

"That depends on what your definition of is is"

[andartop]

Just read Thursday's press conference. Looks like all the other drivers have conspired against McLaren and Lewis as well. It makes sense: Giancarlo and Jarno are both Italians, so of course they would favour the red team, Sebastien wants to please Berger, who used to race for Ferrari, plus has a Ferrari engine behind his back, and Nico...erm...well, he is German, like MS, so he definitely would support his champion countryman's old team. Right. There, it's all clear now.

[myurr]

Just read Thursday's press conference. Looks like all the other drivers have conspired against McLaren and Lewis as well. It makes sense: Giancarlo and Jarno are both Italians, so of course they would favour the red team, Sebastien wants to please Berger, who used to race for Ferrari, plus has a Ferrari engine behind his back, and Nico...erm...well, he is German, like MS, so he definitely would support his champion countryman's old team. Right. There, it's all clear now.

Or they're all drivers under contract to protect F1's, and by extension the FIA's, image. Plus they're all current drivers who are under the scrutiny of the people that we are criticising. If you were worried of a marginal call going one way or the other, would you be out there slagging off the people making that call!?

[Sawtooth-spike]

Look guys can we just put a line under this?

The FIA Appeal court will make up there mind and we will all have to live with the result.

I just wish they had let the result stand and if there was to be a penalty that they Gave it this weekend instead. I hate watching a race and the result being change after it.

So can we just call it a day and bring this topic back up when we get the courts ruling?

*Takes off United Nations Hat*

[mcdenife]

Timbo wrote: OK, OK
Don't you think it is a bit pathetic to call the opinion of CURRENT F1 drivers (not limited to Alonso, Massa and Bourdais, you should add Trulli and Rosberg too) wrong? Or presume you are somehow better "informed" than Bourdais?

Their opinions perhaps, what they state as fact, no. My response was to Ciro's quote from Alonso:

"The FIA decided to change (the system) after several big scandals during past seasons

this was not stated as opinion but as fact and is wrong because the FIA did not change the "system". and from Massa:

He did not have the patience to wait for another corner and try again, and the rules say he should be penalised."

This is also wrong, the rules do not say he should be penalised if he does not wait another corner or indeed how long he should wait before attacking. You do not have to be a
driver (current or otherwise) to be able to read the rules. Dont forget, there is a precedent to all this from Suzuka (2005 I think) when Alonso was advised by his team to give a position back a 2nd time when he was 7 secs up the road. Was it not this very same FIA that clarified later that this was unecessary?
I am not really a fan of any driver per se but if I had to pick one it would be Kimi. With regards to teams, I am a fan of any/all teams but Ferrari mainly because of FIA and these all too frequent shenanigans. My contention in all of this is that neither team (Ferrari or Mclaren) or driver (Kimi or LH) messed up in this but rather, the FIA. A question to everyone who watched that race live; how many thought there was or would be an issue until it was announced there was an investigation and how many thought there would or should be penalty?
With regards to whether or not I am better informed than Bourdais, from his comments he a) does not appear to have read the so-called "rule book", b)he is misinnformed if he cannot see what the "mess" is about because he cannot see a difference between what happened in Spa and Magny-Cours. The only driver to say something worthwhile on this is Kimi himself, noteworthy in the sense that he makes a distinction between rules and decisions. He is vague about specific rules but focuses more on decisions (perhaps tellingly).
Regardless, the point is that the FIA did not just award a retrospective penalty, they awarded a retrospective goal, to take Myurr's analogy one step further, and this "mess is about the fact that a penalty does not always result in a goal.